Kaziranga & Beyond: Land, Livelihoods and the Real Issues in Assam I Pranab Doley I Asad Ashraf

How are you fighting against the state [music] machinery with huge lumps of cash? The entire state machinery work against you. What are the particular issues [music] in your constituency? Conservation of rhinos and wild animals. Use those spaces for their own day-to-day livelihood are now being cordoned off from young generation are quite >> [music] >> clueless, no direction because the government has not been able to provide them any lot of youth here like have to migrate out for work. There's very strict conservation [music] rules, militarized conservation. People are being evicted forcefully. Indigenous people who do not have land titles. Muslims are disproportionately affected in those eviction campaigns. BJP government their whole modus operandi is to polarize the NRC is something which has affected the entire Assam. [music] >> As a citizen of India or Assam this whole thing affects me personally does affect me as a person, as a politician, as a younger generation who thinks about the country, who works for the country, who works for the people. They are hiding too much from the people. How do you see yourself filling in that gap between an activist and a politician >> [music] >> and winning elections? >> [music] >> Hello, salaam, adab. Welcome to our the podcast of Now's Network. Elections often bring with them familiar promises. But every once in a while they also bring voices >> [music] >> shaped outside the usual grammar of power. I am Asad Ashraf and today I'm joined by Pranab Doley, an activist turned political candidate from Bokakhat in the upcoming Assam elections. His politics [music] emerges from the ground where he has worked for years around land conservation and the uneasy relationship between the state and communities living at the margins. In this conversation we move [music] beyond positions and sit with more difficult questions that define his politics. Thank you for giving time to Now's Network and we would like to talk about your journey as an activist and why did you why did you decide to contest elections as an as an activist? I mean activists have not fairly done well elections in elections all throughout India if records are to be seen. So my first question to you is around that only. I mean as an activist, as someone who has been working around indigenous people, tribal communities why did you decide to contest an election, an assembly election? I mean this is not the first time you're contesting election. You have done that before in 2000 in the last assembly election. But why again this time after having lost the last election despite being supported by the Congress alliance? Good morning Asad and thanks for as in giving me this platform to have a conversation and put forward like our ideas. I mean the ideas of people the questions that you ask around like the electoral politics and uh why like Bokakhat chooses to go into elections with an activist or with an candidate independent candidate. As in yeah, it's been a uh a journey for more than a decade where we've been engaging with uh with the people with the people from my constituency as well as like across the country and uh and uh I mean yeah, it's also a clear mandate from the people that political power like which is denied to the mostly marginalized and oppressed people. So in a democracy I mean it's very important and the kind of democratic exercises or practices that it's uh I mean we see that's unfolding in front of us right now where people genuinely and seriously have a lack of their own representatives. Like it's become like a corporate managed and um uh frenzy of spectacles and just uh equations at the time of elections. But going against that wave and tide so where the people in Bokakhat like the constituency where I belong uh comes forward to contest an election to demand their rightful place in democracy where where like we cast our important votes to our our own self, to our own people, to to to unite together and and to protect democracy basically. It's an exercise to protect democracy, not just an exercise to contest in an elections for the sake of contesting an elections. Like the whole ground truth, the whole ground reality, the whole conditions, the demogra demographic patterns and uh and and also like how the truly working class and the marginalized and all the well-meaning people who decides or who wants to safeguard the Indian democracy comes together and takes a position that yeah, we need to put forward our candidature, we need to struggle to protect democracy and so this is the outcome of that whole larger exercise where I am just the face of the whole people's uh issues and anxieties and their desires and their needs actually, the real needs of like what all they have been denied in this like long very long exercises of electing their representatives after every 5 years and also in different forms like so here I I think like this this was uh coming from the people where they collectively wanted to be represented and I as a person who like you said have contested in the 2021 elections which was also a decision taken out of the conditions that uh that demanded us to the younger generation to come forward to challenge the status quo, to challenge the divisive and uh in all forms like in the religious, in caste divisive politics that was being forced upon people uh and uh and being one of them like it it was also my duty I think like to stand if when the people needs it the most. So I mean here we are like going ahead with the 2020 six election exercises where the campaign is at a it's going on at at its peak and people are just uh uh expressing like not solidarity only solidarity but they're participating in it like thousands of people from my constituency there's so much of love and affection and support that's flowing on flowing in from across the country. I mean nationally, internationally and I think yeah, it's it's it's it's I mean yeah, tough decision for a person like me who doesn't come from a big uh political say setup of an very big organized party or um or even like a a family or even my own community who is who doesn't which is which is a huge like uh uh population or a which is a like huge part of uh the whole constituencies. Like when I say my community it's I have been representing the marginalized communities across caste and creed and religion. So I think like for us it was um instead of like sitting back and thinking like someone else will correct our democracy, it was a decision taken for us to jump into the midst of everything that's going wrong and try to correct that from within. So yeah, here we are like yeah, it's going good till now and we hope people Right, we'll come back to this part later. I mean we'll try Yeah, we'll come back to this part later. I'll try to understand how are you fighting against a state machinery which which has huge lumps of cash and you know, there's entire state machinery working for the candidate who is fighting against you and you know, you're fighting against big capital. So we'll come back to this later and talk about it. But before that I would like to understand what are the particular issues that you are talking about in your constituency that is Bokakhat. And so also as an important center in terms of the fact that it's you know, it's a constituency where Kaziranga Park is located. There's a lot of talk going around conservation of rhinos and conservation of wild animals here. So what are your issues here and what are your promises uh to your voters? See I mean the uh whole as in the whole uh idea of coming and trying to represent the people here starts off with the kind of systemic marginalization that has been uh that has been going on that is continuing in these areas for like for generations and even today like even the basic infrastructure, the basic institutions that are that are the very basics or the needs of people is not in place. I mean uh we have a government which talks about having a double engine and going full throttle like towards progress. But in reality what you see like 90% of the population still like lives in extreme poverty. They are deprived from even the basic needs for health the basic need for say agricultural infrastructure the basics of uh even roads and connectivity, education. These are like the primary concerns of the people because we are an agrarian constituency. On the one side we have like uh say it's a it's a constituency that's uh I mean, between the Karbi Hills and the Brahmaputra river. So, half of the constituency is flood prone, and the other other half like it's mostly comprises of tea garden Adivasi communities. And then we have like a few small centers of market. So, and holistic development is completely missing here. And like you mentioned, yeah, we are a very important constituency in in in many like terms. One for sure is the big uh world heritage site, I mean, Kaziranga, the famous uh national park that's located here. And uh and the kind of economy that revolves around it. Uh for sure like the marginalized happens at multiple layers. I mean, the whole conservation or the fortress model of conservation that's been propagated in tiger projects across the country and Kaziranga being one of the primary examples where they talk about like deploying the advanced nuances of the global conservation economy, which is say more land that needs to go into the forest for protection of animals, which which is their idea. But we have been challenging that whole narrative and saying that without communities who have taken the responsibility of taking care of the wildlife and the forest, there can be no Kaziranga. But they but the big conservationist lobbyists and the infrastructures and institutions do not understand that. And along with it now there is a booming tourism economy that's developing around Kaziranga. And the tourism economy which uh till today or till a few years back, till 10 years back, still the local communities had some kind of an stake in it. But gradually now you have big capital coming in where you have corporations like like the Hyatt and Mahindra and the Taj groups and name any and they have like big big properties coming up here. At whose expense it's coming at the expense of like poor marginalized farming communities, tea garden working communities. And and we have been standing against it because we know that like that economy is not going to help us. It's it's kind of an one-way road where they only build the infrastructure here to exploit our people and our resources. So, so the people are gradually getting to understand this whole hard reality here and they're coming uniting against it. And on the other hand, we had an uh uh MLA or a minister who has been who has been here for the last 10 years, for the last two terms. And Atul Bora is the party president of the NDA alliance AGP. And the amount of income balances really high and people have not been able to I mean, he's not been able to like uh uh let alone take care, he's not been able to even build a relationship with the communities or the people here. So, the people feel abandoned, extremely abandoned that none of their concerns are being heard. There's no developmental um I mean, infrastructure that's being built here. So, there's a high rate of outward migration. Tea gardens are in a very bad shape where like majority of the population still live in inhuman conditions, I mean, which needs to be changed. And on the one hand, I've already mentioned the political economy of say the tourism sector where they are taking away our prime agricultural land. I mean, taking over animal corridors and putting I mean, in as a result of which like we have an increasing pressure on the agrarian communities or communities residing around Kaziranga. The human-animal conflict is at a record high. It's increasing on a day-to-day basis. And the human rights violations come along with it because the tiger project has strict rules similar to the Armed Forces Special Power Act where they have strict rules and regulations for communities who earlier used those spaces for their own day-to-day livelihood, for their own cultural practices are now being cordoned off from from the communities. And along with it, the young generation are quite clueless. There's no direction because the government has not been able to provide them any avenues or even a guidance to go ahead. Since uh a lot of youth here like have to migrate out for work. And since I mean, very concerning for the communities here when an whole generation is being lost where we do not have like proper since we do not I mean, being part of Kaziranga or close to uh to an eco-sensitive zone, no development zone like huge industrial processes do not take place here because of certain limitations or certain restrictions. At the same time, we had the possibility of growing as an local tourist economy where like the communities were at the forefront, but that has been denied now. Or building Bokakhat constituency into a proper health and educational uh space proper educational institutions for our communities which which were not environmentally degrading or health infrastructures, but those are not being built here. So, there's there's a lot of remorse and concern in the hearts of people. So, overall like I think like this time on we are moving ahead with uh not promises, but uh the word or pledges along with the people, with the communities to to address all these issues. Say the flood prone areas, how do we build the infrastructure, robust structure for people to have have safety and security every year when there are like these devastating floods where they at least have spaces where they can live or rest in dignity during the flood times and immediately recover through proper government help. The flood issue still even today like after hundreds of years, the government has not been able to make it a national issue. It needs to be like a national disaster. It needs to be recognized by the government and proper monetary and infrastructure and technical support needs to be provided by the central government, but that's not happening. And along with it, the high rate of human-animal conflict where we we we as in the communities here have to accrue huge losses every year. So, that needs to be addressed as well. We need a law where which talks about like proper rehabilitation and compensation in actual terms, in real terms, in in in civic terms. But that is also not happening here. And along with it like the whole younger generation, youth generation needs needs to go ahead, needs to be a part of this democracy. Their ideas needs to come in. They need to be able to build and construct. Or else like yeah, it's the same old ideas or the very like exploitative and extractive capitalist ideas this the the parties are following where they have this hierarchical structure where the younger generation do not have any space and that remorse and that angst is very much evident among the youth generation, among the communities here. Yeah. Right. Right. So, you've cited I mean, I was going through one of your interview where you have cited that and you talk about here here also that there's very strict conservation rules and you have described it as militarized conservation. So, you know, I would like to understand that when you describe it as militarized conservation, are you undermining the fact that uh uh Kaziranga is also one of those uh uh one of those model uh which is India's biggest conservation success in terms of protecting rhinos? No, not at all. I mean, just that I'm trying to state that uh the conservation success comes uh who are the primary owners of this success? Here the people I For me, the first and foremost guardians are the people who needs recognition here, who have taken because they have sacrificed, they have taken the responsibility are the communities residing here. And that has been blanketly erased and denied. And on the other hand, they're trying to build a military apparatus, which is which is which is very severe and dangerous where you are like violating and erasing the civil liberties and human rights of communities residing here. Which is which is not a model that's sustainable was as I mentioned already, without the support of the communities, the sacrifices if I mentioned a few, the tigers in Kaziranga stay alive because the livestock herders or the cattle farmers, they are the ones who have to sacrifice their livestock for the uh I mean, it's it's an it's it's an ecosystem. So, and without the ecosystem built by the communities, I don't think like the animals in Kaziranga or Kaziranga could survive on its own. But here you see on the other hand, it's kind of Kaziranga today is like dominated by ideas which are which are not organic, which are which are borrowed from uh from from uh the conservation conservation which is very pro-capital, which is very anti-people. And that is what we are against. Yeah, Kaziranga is a success and we need to take pride of it. We do take pride of it, but not at the cost of at the cost that's coming to the people here, which is very lopsided. And and and by saying that Kaziranga is a success, they're trying to replicate the same model in different parts of the country. For example, in Nagarhole where you see the kind of struggle that the PVTGs, the Jenukurubas are having to go through there to a kind of you know, assert their habitat rights or the right to live there, which is again now it's a very contradictory because on the one hand we have like great laws like the Forest Rights Act. And on the other hand like there's a huge lobby which is supported by the government. If it was a democratic government, I mean you know, the people who would have had the space to kind of uh put forward their concerns, but here it's it's completely blocked off in in the fortress model like Kaziranga. It's It's It's It's run by a machinery that's not totally um in conversation with the communities. And that's what we are against. So Kaziranga, I repeat again, it's a success because of the uh contribution of the communities and that needs to be recognized. And the the symbiotic cohabitation that people have evolved here or developed here, that needs to be sustained. And for that like the government needs to put measures in place or put institutions or put policies or acts in place that supports the community, not deny them further. And and in the process like completely uh you know, it's sort of an uh it sort of an removing erasing histories and communities from that space and trying to talk about Kaziranga success only from an conservation lobby's point of view. Right. You talk about evictions also. I mean, you have spoke about evictions. People are being evicted forcefully or from you know, which I believe to be forest lands. And um And most of these people who are evicted are indigenous people who do not have land titles. Uh so, but you also talk about human-animal conflict, right? I mean, when people are living near forest, there tends to be have there tends to be some kind of human-animal conflict for sure. So, how do you seek to address that? I mean, how do you seek to address you talk about you oppose evictions from "quote unquote" encroached lands which are called encroached by the government. And the government calls it encroached, but I'm not calling it encroached. The government calls it encroached. But at the same time, you talk about human-animal conflict. There there seems to be some kind of contradiction to me in the to me there. While you are an expert in that area, I'm not sure how would you understand what I'm trying to frame. But yeah. Yeah. No, I I do understand that. Yeah, that's a very legit question. And that's where I would like to clarify the complexity of this whole binary that they are trying to create, right? It's like our people encroaching into forest land and that's why there's more human-animal conflict. That's not true. It's It's a model which is very you know, a corporate or a capitalist model that uh that looks at uh which which kind of puts the burden of say uh of all these issues on common people of rising human-animal conflict or uh space special issues where communities evicted from one place settles in another. Like these are mostly governance and government related and proper as in implementation of those um uh say designs or or the acts and policies by the government which they have failed. On the other hand, you see here in Assam like on the one hand like you are evicting people from everywhere. And Kaziranga definitely is one of the examples where communities have been evicted historically. But recently, there's also a very communally targeted attack on uh uh on communities, on agrarian communities, on Muslim communities across the state. I mean, yeah. And and you are evicting people from those spaces and giving the same land to corporations like Adani and Ambani. So, how are you resolving it? Here yeah. And people think that like only the evictions is happening among the minority Muslim communities. And I mean, that's a vengeful BJP agenda. We all know that. And that's only for the purpose of dividing the community and the society and creating situation of conflict so that it has its own perks and benefits for the way this this party's rule lasts work. It helps them to keep people divided. But on the other hand, they are not talking about thousands and thousands of hectares of land from say from other areas like the hill districts of Karbi Anglong, Dima Hasao, from Kaziranga, the surrounding riverine areas, from Upper Assam where you have like coal and oil where land is being given out to Vedanta, Adani, Ambani, Ramdev and all these private corporations. So, here somewhere I mean, the whole imagery or the narrative that they are trying to create is like yeah, we are going to clean off or I mean, we are going to remove people from forest. No, they are not doing that. They are removing people who are growing forests. Where people communities reside, they do cultivate there, they do grow crops there, they do grow trees there, they do grow horticultural things. And and and there will be some sort of definitely territorial I mean, animal movement where there will be some amount of conflict. But on the other hand, where the permanent territories where the animals uh live as in those areas are being given away to these big corporations where they are like completely destroying the ecosystem there. So, this is where if you see the balance between where they are blaming our agrarian communities or the other communities who are residing due to landlessness, which primarily was the responsibility of governments. I mean, consecutive governments to give them a proper settlement, to give them land entitlement, to give them like a dignified life which the government have failed. On the other hand, communities have built their own own own [clears throat] economy and system and settled there and thrived in those spaces. But this inhuman eviction is definitely something that needs to be called out. And at the same time, the truth where like you are just evicting a few hundred families. And then on the other hand or a few hundred hectares of land. And on the other hand, you are giving away thousands and thousands of hectares of land for extractive, exploitative, and devastating environmentally devastating corporations. I mean, this dichotomy needs to be understood. And without that, yeah, we'll keep blaming each other like oh, this is happening, that's happening. So, I mean, there needs to be a balance between both of this. And and only then like the true picture comes out. Yeah. Absolutely. There needs to be some kind of balance to ensure that this is resolved. Well, I also I was reading about I was reading through I was going through your interviews, your videos, your podcasts from before. And I also got to know I also got to read that you talk about tribal rights. Of course, when you're talking about it, you're talking about tribal rights as well. And you talk about tribal rights. And you know, but I do want to understand, you know, tribal tribals in Assam are not a homogeneous community. It's deeply fragmented. And there are Missing, there are Karbi, there are Bodos, there are I mean, there are overlapping territorial and political demands. So, speak of tribal rights as they are unified. But what happens when tribal groups compete over each other's land? Yeah, I mean So, the kind of politics that's being propagated definitely puts our people into conflict and contestation with each other at multiple spaces and times. Which can be resolved. I mean, it's not gone to a point where it's unresolvable. For example, like if the Bodos have a demand for their own status which they do have already or the Karbis have their own demand for a status that do they have already. I mean, along with all these other territorial demands, there are also like overlapping demands which all the communities do have at this point of time. For example, like all the indigenous tribal communities are at this point of time, you know, they are they kind of uh they can see through what the government is doing. So, there are efforts by the NDA government to uh fracture the communities and build uh ethnic community ethnic conflicts amongst them which are primary examples we have like going around in different states here. Manipur, one of the most prime examples. But in Assam, since the BJP government has been here for the last uh 10 years. You see that the tribal communities at this point at this juncture, they do understand that this government is not for them. Because the safeguards and the rights that where we had our communities had to fight for. For example, the sixth schedule or the tribal belts and blocks which is a very special um component in the Assam demography or in this polity. So, these safeguards are now being uh gradually like they are being demolished. They are being destroyed where the sixth schedule is just become symbolic where the tribal belt and block are completely being as in you know they are being kind of violated or I mean from all over. So, there are bigger concerns than communities fighting amongst each other as state. That's the only ploy or the kind of politics that the BJP government does does is like to divide. But on the other hand you see like now in our journey of working amongst across country communities you have a united demands where of a collective protection of not not only indigenous communities but of all communities against inhuman evictions of all communities against uh destruction of the tribal rights for which has been given to them by the Indian constitution. So, yeah we see like a bigger move where communities are coming together at this point of time rather than dividing or I mean say kind of creating fractures among themselves. There are sections who yeah. Sorry. Yeah, yeah you can go ahead. You can go ahead. >> Yeah, there are sections um within this which are like you know patronized by the ruling government who works towards creating all these issues. I mean there are tribal organizations who are working towards creating these issues. But at the same time the mass people the tribal communities the holistically Assamese communities are against these policies of the government where they understand that oh this government they come every 5 years they just all that they do is like to stay in power so that they can um hand over all the resources and all the power to corporations to exploit and on the other hand rule the people not govern anymore rule the people with firm iron hands where you don't have democratic space to even express your concerns and in Bokakhat I come back down to Bokakhat the constituency where I am in the communities here are coming together and they're like no we are tired of this kind of politics. We don't want to be a part where like the only where they treat us like say something to sell and buy like commodities. We don't want to be a commodity in this democracy. We want to have our stake. We want to have our say and we want to be able to express our concerns and that's where the government has failed and now if I tell you the ground reality here at this point of time you see like we are already the people if you look into my campaign it's not the traditional way of campaign that they do. Wherever we go people are coming out on their own genuinely across villages they come dance with us sing with us and it's it's it's it's kind of an uh rejoicing the democracy. Because that's the uh apparatus that we want. It's the space that we want. It's like rejoicing the democracy. People are happy. People are also at the same time stating their grief that of not having someone or not being able to express their concerns elections after elections just like the money and uh uh then alcohol uh threats. They're tired of this. Now the threats like at this point of time the what the Assam government did they the BJP government they went across the state uh they gave money to the women in the name of Orunodoi lakhs of women in the name of um uh say creating Lakhpati by those. These are the schemes that they have come up just before the elections where they are giving money say 10,000 and 9,000 20 25,000 to each women and also to a section of women which they need to consolidate their vote base. The BJP thinks that's the only way they can win and that's the only way they can win by buying votes. But uh genuinely this time on in Assam we see there is an uh wave against that. People who they have been thinking that are completely agency-less are coming out and expressing their agencies and our campaign is a prime example of that. Yeah, I see like great hope amongst people. Right. Right. I wish you all the best in that and I do understand that you have time constraints because you have a busy day ahead. So, I have couple of more questions for you. I mean two three four questions for you. One is on Muslim land and affection. I mean we do understand that in Assam when we talk about evictions Muslims are disproportionately affected in those eviction campaigns. And so you know I would like to understand that where do you stand on the question of Muslim evictions. Well, I do understand that people would say that everyone is affected and Muslims are also a part of the masses but there is some disproportion in in terms of their affection their evacuation. So, how do you how do you see that? Yeah, that's I mean outrightly clear. I won't deny that I mean because the whole BJP government their whole modus operandi is to polarize the community in the name of religion. And here like uh that's I think that's the way fascists function where they need to find the other always. And in Assam it's the Muslims because we border Bangladesh and there has been an historical relation between these two spaces. Uh since Bangladesh is an Muslim dominated country and historically contiguous lands and pre pre independence pre British time there are historical roots and relations in these spaces. Mostly uh the lower part of Assam. And say so so so there are genuine fears among certain communities as well from both sides the Muslim communities because of their the kind of uh say structurally how they have been denied for ages for generations and similarly other communities as well. So, the BJP is just best display into those concerns and and and create like kind of an binary and a conflict that becomes everlasting and that's what the BJP is trying very hard. But still in Assam I mean though there are sections of people who have given into this whole communal narrative but large section of people still do understand that. And unless and until there are like genuinely struggles which we don't see many among communities like fighting each other. There has been examples historical examples where there have been conflicts which are very much designed and programmed as well. Uh and and the governments repeatedly they have been trying to do this in order to say win their elections and stay in power consolidate their own base. They are like oh the others they are there so we have to be fearful of them so that we need to consolidate. But then Assam is a very diverse space. I mean those kind of linear narratives would not work here. Communities have their own spaces their own uh um their own concerns their own culture their own territories and so these are things which are which is a good sign that most of the communities as well are are getting to know they are they can see that what's unraveling in front of them. It's very it's very devastating or it's very harmful in the long run. And with what is happening with the Muslim communities mostly in the lower part of Assam the BJP which is doing that in order to polarize the state it's very wrong. It's undemocratic. That's something which the Indian constitution doesn't allow. But but the BJP government is beyond the constitution. They don't believe in the Indian constitution which was drafted by our chairman Dr. B.R. Ambedkar which one of our forefathers and people like Jaypal Singh Munda and many people from Assam who have also contributed to that uh uh and and they believe in an uh say uh say an ethics which is our values which is enshrined upon them I would say not on us by the Manusmriti or text like that. So, this is concerning and we have been clearly and outrightly stating and standing against it. We have tried to stand in solidarity and support and struggle for each and every Indian citizen who have been denied denied their basic fundamental rights the article 21 right to leave. Everyone in Assam has a right to leave. So, just for the sake of like politics what the BJP is doing is very wrong. I mean people in their own spaces in Dhubri or in uh uh Goalpara in different areas where you see they they have the right to leave and the kind of spectacle, the show of this whole bulldozer raj, which is copied from Yogi Adityanath's UP, the kind of encounters that is happening, which is very lopsided, like you say. That's That's very wrong. That's That's not what like citizens want, and we are we are against it. We need to address concerns. There are people who, if they don't have land rights, it's because of a certain cause. There are historical reasons. It may be because of erosion from the river, the Brahmaputra. They have been displaced multiple times, and they people will have to stay leave somewhere. And if they're leaving somewhere, then we need to see the context and try and address what is happening there. Those are genuine Indian citizens who have been voting this government to power repeatedly. And now, when just for the sake of communalizing the state, they're doing this exercise in a much more enhanced or like say aggressive manner, we think like yeah, this needs to stop. And this election I I I I'm hopeful that the people in Assam will stand against it. And people in upper Assam do have their own concerns. There are elements who try to polarize people by threatening workers, by by showcasing the simple I mean common people as in vigilantes, right? So, these are not things that we support. There are a huge section of Assamese people who do not support this kind of politics and stand very firmly for democracy. Right. NRC is something which has affected the entire Assam. I mean, the entire Assam in terms of the errors that we have seen the list, the humanitarian concerns that have come out of it. I'm sure it has affected your constituency, too. So, what's your position on NRC list right now, Pranav? So, I mean, somehow demographically, I am located in a constituency which is the least affected by the whole NRC exercise and the whole uh process of this uh It's only my constituency I talk about, but at the same time, I don't deny as a citizen of India or Assam, this whole thing affects me personally, if not demographically, but politically it does affect me as a person, as a politician, as a younger generation who thinks about the country, who works for the country, who works for the people. And I feel like yeah, they they're hiding too much from the people. They do not have the courage to actually go through this exercise which communities across have have kind of taken a referendum on. I mean, be it whatever, there are historical reasons which we can go into like pages and pages and discuss about it without getting a very clear-cut answer. But what I see like very pragmatically is like the government has more to hide. They have more to fear because the NRC exercise in itself is a failure. It's a failure because the kind of promises that they have been giving, it's wrong. They have not been able to prove that. So, they do not have the courage to come to the people and speak the truth. And um the genuinity of citizens, I mean, it's a state exercise. It's a state uh mechanism. It's a that has to be decided through uh commonly acknowledged or agreed upon terms and conditions, which the Assam has the government or the Assam has tried to build up a model. And that needs to be I mean, I don't know how robust or how how like democratic and unbiased uh that is at this point of time, but it needs to be very democratic, very transparent, and very robust, so that people do not have to go through the ordeal of having to prove their citizenry again and again or going through this whole detention center. In today's time, like how can people think about detention centers? That's inhumane. If there are issues with Bangladesh, why don't you have like a clear-cut talk with the Bangladeshi government or the other governments around where you have say you're talking about people like cross-border migration. So, migration is a human pattern. I mean, that's there, but the Indian government, being such a huge democracy, needs to resolve it in a better way, not by like criminalizing people, not by pitting people against each other, which this government, because of their lack of understanding, lack of will, basically, they do understand this whole exercise. I mean, because of their lack of uh moral moral grounds or values or That's their whole politics that they want to divide people. So, they have failed us. So, I think like yeah, in coming generations, we all will have to work and undo the wrongs and injustice that has been meted to different communities, Muslims, tribals, indigenous other indigenous communities, and uh and have have a platform, at least have a space, have a democratic apparatus where we all can have a discussion on all these issues and try and find solutions. Well, I do hear you, and it's really great to hear you about your I mean, listen to you, listen to your thought process, listen to your arguments, uh listen to your understanding of uh issues that surface in your region and beyond that. Uh but there's something that I would like like to bring up again, and this is something that I started up started with, and this is perhaps my last question to you. How do you see yourself as an activist filling in that gap where there's a where there's a clear gap between an activist and a politician? What we have seen uh nationwide in most of the cases is that activists have not been successful politicians. And activists have not been winning elections. Be that Irom Sharmila, be that Medha Patkar, be that someone else. So, how do you see to fill in that gap, and how do you want How do you How do you How do you look forward to win this election as an activist? Yeah, it's been an interesting journey, I mean, for the last more than a decade. And so, where we are walking this fine line of politics and activism, mostly yeah, we are heavily tilted towards activism since that's the need uh need of the hour in our democracy. And on the other hand, you have like this whole uh very uh entrenched political apparatus where they think like the politician has to be of a certain nature, of a certain stature, of a certain domination denomination. Uh I think yeah, it's at the end of the day, it's not like um history hasn't proved uh those apparatuses wrong. I mean, uh time and again, people have uh proved that all your apparatus, all your say kind of equations and arithmetic that you draw in your board boardrooms or with all your propaganda and everything, uh the people in the country have stood time and against against them. And that's the uh understanding that I carry, that we cutting across demographics here, cutting across issues here, uh and at this time of like where the newer generations have other mediums of communicating and connecting, we are trying to use all these means to try and prove definitely it's an effort to prove that the younger generation which has been neglected from all corners need to snatch their own space. I mean, no one will give you that space. So, for them, every election it's an equation. It's It has a particular economy of uh say electoral economy, which doesn't And most of the parties, since they come from a very bourgeois base and denomination, very much focused on a corporate style of working and functioning, very patriarchal and hierarchical in nature, we are kind of standing against all of that tide. Since we are the majority, the people, the democratic persons and people, we are the majority, we are the vote base. So, staying among the vote base and creating from within that like the politics that we create, I think that's very important. And I would appeal like more younger people from across the country to come ahead. And uh and and jump into this exercise from amongst people. I mean, yeah, there's great amount of engagement that you have to do. Uh it's it's it's connection beyond just that a leader and a people. It's here everyone coming together, and they're just selecting or nominating someone who is representing them like me. And uh And our election itself proves I mean, last year on as well, like though I had like the support of bigger apparatuses, I mean, still like I could see that there the way they function, that's not the way of politics that I would like to do, right? I mean, uh I do need all their support. I don't deny the fact that you'll have to have support from all the opposition. But here, when you see that within that uh there are like um say strategies or there are I mean, uh you know what you say? I mean, uh They're trying to like kind of deny the communities their legit voice or to come forward uh acknowledgement of communities or or even have the common minimum uh apparatus to discuss things from across. Uh so, I think then ground activists or grassroot activists or from among the communities it becomes our duty to come forward and try and stand. I mean it's not to prove us prove prove to anyone but to fight that still younger generation and still the common people need the avenues to put their concern. Only that will strengthen the fight against the fascists. I don't think like this your curated leaders can fight the fascist machinery. It has to be the people and and I see myself as one among them who is a challenge to this force not across the country but in a small constituency like Bokakhat where the the ruling denomination or this opposition equation which they are creating at the last moment which I would not deny in calling out. It's it's just an facade deal opposition alliance which they have created and uh uh and uh here in Bokakhat we are standing against it and we seek support from everyone and across the country. I would definitely call for more younger people to join in. Not a young doesn't mean that by age or anything but right thinking people and we need to come together and I'm ready to go to every any corner of the country where I could be useful in working with them against this politics of hate against this fascist exercises. Yeah, I mean experience teaches us and I would be very honored to uh kind of work with a a larger community of people and if we stand together that's only our strength. We don't have like a machinery of money and other thing. And money yeah they think because people are agency-less so they try to buy you with money with threats but people do have agencies and they will exercise their agency when they have the right avenue. I think people like us if we come forward keep that hope alive so that other younger people can come and join in fill that gap. That's the only way that's the only road to to fight this whole uh regime and I hope like yeah this uh works out for us and it will be historic if we can pull that off. Thank you so much for now for your time for your precious time during this election campaign. I wish you all the best again and really hope that you could just surpass all the challenges confronting you right now and wishing you all the best again. And I hope to have you on again on our show sometime to talk about something else from your constituency from your state. Thank you so much. Thanks Asad. Yeah, it was an honor. Thank you so much.