How did Aligarh survive the rise and fall of empires, and what does its history reveal about India’s layered past? In this conversation, author Atif Syed discusses his book Aligarh: The City That Outlasted Empires, tracing the city’s journey from Koil and its Rajput origins through the Delhi Sult…
Sasyad actually wanted to start a vernacular university in Urdu medium, but that was put down by the British also that it won't work. He eventually gave up the idea. I think there were several strategic reasons Sasyad Ahmed Khan picked Aligarh. As somebody who's not trained particularly in history writing, what did you learn? What did you face, the challenges? What were the historical resources that came to you? I've been inspired by William D'Olimpo's book.
um if you read as the last mogul after 1707 when aurangzeb died until 1785 when mahaji sindia made aligarh fort as his headquarter of northern india so that period was very volatile period specifically with aligarh's history is very scattered interesting thing is marathas came
captured it in 1785 they did not change the name because you're talking about rajputs and others what is the sociology of that region who are the people living there in terms of plans and other things travelers like thomas twining who visited in 1794 he talks about he goes on elephant coil he talks about the mosque there after aurangzeb died they were regional
wars going on because of the power vacuum. Paradoxically, in Adigar, first few decades were very stable because of Sadiq Khan. Let's talk about British, French. We've been talking about, you know, the Mughals, the Delhi Sultanate. We've come to discuss about the Marathas. So, Mahaji Sindhia, I think, was a visionary. He noticed the technological advancement that French could bring. And from the French point of view, it was also an opportunity for them to put their feet.
within Hindustan. Is there a communal past? How deep is it when it comes to Aligarh perspective? People talk about two-nation theory, etc. And they say like Sir Syed Ahmed Khan is a progenitor of that two-nation theory. But I don't think so.
Satyabhai, welcome to Nows. And we were just having this pre-podcast good conversation about, you know, why you chose to write the book, your interests, and ultimately this idea of belonging. So where you've come from, which is known so much as a place in the entire world, you know, people who studied in AMU, it's a cult.
I'm from Aligarh, my nana, my mother and everybody, my khalas have all studied from AMU. But Aligs are like a proper society. And so one thing that you mentioned in this regard is that that has somehow also overshadowed the history of that city itself. The city which is lesser known than the university, which often happens with places in Oxford.
other places that's the nature of places where one thing that creates a dominant you know life people ultimately see that space from that lens but you shifted you choose to see beyond so the question for me would be what led you to choose why were you not you know happy enough to know amu why did you think that you wanted to know more what triggered you
So I would say, you know, I love history. I've always been fascinated by history. I always feel that if you want to know any person, any event, any place, history plays a crucial role. And for me, the same feeling was for my city where I was born. I was brought up. I left Aligarh early, like you mentioned in the intro.
I was in AMU for a few months. So technically, I am an AMU alum also. But I got Singapore Airlines scholarship. But when I left Aligarh, there was always that feeling in my heart. I have not explored my city that much. I used to visit places in the old city like Russell Gunge, where some of my relatives lived. Or sometimes I would go to Upper Court, but not that often.
I was always fascinated, you know, these are such old places like Jama Masjid there or Rasalganj, you know, where the name Rasal came from and things like that. I was always curious. So anyway, those things, you know, when you're growing up always in your mind, but I think I felt when I left Aligarh, those became a lot more prominent in my mind and heart that I need to find out more about it. So
I just started without thinking of anything, you know, five, six years back when, you know, around the time of COVID to learn more about my city. And I was looking for books available on illegal journals, etc. And you will, at least I realized that almost every book, every other book.
talks about Aligarh Muslim University and Sarsiya Daimat Khan or Aligarh Movement and I would say rightfully so. There is a reason for that and I totally am aligned to that thought because AMU has played such a pivotal role in the history of the city. Even to the history of the community itself. Even to the history of the community itself and
For me, that was not enough because, you know, I have been reading history. I'm a big fan of William D'Arlempil or, you know, I've been reading about the history of religions. I'm a big fan of Karen Armstrong. I love their writing style. I love books on Romans and others and all that. And I always felt that reading just about AMU or Sarsia Daimat Khan
is not telling me the complete story of the city and it was in my heart and so I what I did I just started my on my own writing you know the history just trying to see you know what happened in different eras I started in google docs and and slowly you know when I try to dig deeper
it did not take very long for me to realize there are so many forgotten stories we don't know about I did not know about because I was learning myself for the first time many of these events and people and the families and the lives of the battles and so when I started looking even more I found these stories multi-layered
People, there were relationships between different families, like the French families or among the Britishers, their dual loyalties. There was not much material written about the 1857 War of Independence, specifically from Aligarh's point of view. And I tried to dig in there.
And there are some fascinating stories after stories that keep coming out. And these are recent events. You go back to the Mughal eras when Babar visited Aligarh. A feast was thrown for him. He stayed in Coil for a few days and he talks about it in his Babarnama. There's a market called Babri Mandi in the old city which still exists today. Named after him by a local resident, Sheikh Oran.
And there's a life story of Sheikh Hurran himself. So, you can go a little bit more earlier, you know, when Ghiyas-ud-Din Balban built the Koyil Minar, which stood there for six centuries next to the Jama Masjid at Uppercourt. And people who live in that part of the city, the old city,
have never heard about Coil Minar. I've talked to people. Even people living there? People living there, they have never heard about it. And it just kind of fascinates me right how fast history disappears until we go and make an effort to and document it down. And you can go further back, Qutub-ud-Din Abaq's attack on the Coil in 1194. That fort which we call Upper Court or Upper Court today.
Sometimes it is called Balai Qila, which is a Persian word. What again means high fort. There used to be a fort there which no more there. There's a very small part of the wall still remaining near the Jama Masjid if you go there. But that's disappearing. I've seen it disappearing in front of my eyes in the last two, three years. And there is such a detailed, documented information available about that battle.
and it's just unbelievable it feels like you know um although it's more than eight centuries back when that battle happened when the conquest of coil happened um that such a rich history exists today
And then you go back to the origins of the city. You start with the more legends, you know, where the name Kohl came from. And then you go further down. Then you have Guptas and Kushans and all that. So before the Delhi Sultanate, I think...
you rely a lot on the archaeological evidence because documented history really started with the conquest of Kuala Lumpur in 1194. Before that, it's more on a lot of assumptions, a lot of archaeological evidence. You try to put together and make some sense out of it. And then there was a moment when I realized I can't keep it to myself. I will be very selfish if I don't share it to the world. And that's when I thought, okay, I should start.
thinking about writing a book and I started working on a manuscript. I think also what was important for me I thought is that it's not just these historical facts after facts, rich facts after facts, it's also how you communicate it to the world. So for me I was very very particular about it that if I'm going to tell the story of a leaguer
It should be in a way that even if you're connected to Aligarh, either you were born, raised there, or you just went there for two years or one year to do some course or master's or graduation at Aligarh Muslim University. You should feel connected to what I'm writing, to my storytelling. And so I thought I should write it in a storytelling way as if I'm telling, narrating a story of Aligarh. It's a historical narrative.
Second, I wanted to make it accessible. I'll explain accessible, what I mean by that is I wanted this story to be understood by a layman to a historian. So I was very, very particular if there are
words, terms used which were used more commonly in Mughal eras, etc. Dastur and Sarkar and Mahal and all that. I will explain it in a lot more simpler way because I want you to read it. You don't have to go and search the internet. You should be able to figure it out. And the third thing is the engaging way. I would say that this is something I've been inspired by William D'Olimpo's book. If you read his The Last Mughal. He writes
uh about these characters their their what's going on in their mind uh you know their relationship the politics the families i i thought i will try to take some of it obviously i'm um you know not very very far away from you know the way that will give that but what i try to do at least
get some inspiration and write it so you will see that my book has a lot more those of those engaging moments and you know like for example during the battle of aligarh in 1803 what was going on on the side of the french and the marathas who were fighting against the british the dual royalties the people the you know the anglo-indians who were fighting in the marathas how they were trying to go on the british side because they did not want to fight the
the British and things like that and then you will see go back a little bit between the Marathas and some of the negotiations going on with the some of the Mughal commanders who were who who had ownership of the Aligarh fort and things like that so I try to go a little bit deeper into you know these kind of interpersonal experiences that become part of this story and so that has been my endeavor
to tell this story it's not a dry history it's not i wanted to make it not a dry history because i have experienced that myself i want it to be a history uh where you get lost in the characters and the people and the personalities and that's what i've done and i think people as much as it's a history of a city it is also a history of people who lived there and how they interacted and what kind of relationships they had absolutely i think that's uh really
not just the engaging way it's also how human beings live and if you abstract too much out of historical narratives so what remains is macro realities that might not be very much embedded and endowed within the way
that history really, you know, happened. So, for example, if, you know, somebody would say that there was a biggest highway built by somebody, you know, in 15th century. But that does not get into the facts wherein how many people, how they felt, what was the, you know, experience of the labor working there, what was the experience of the architect. So, that whole project of building something can be seen, you know, through different lenses.
So I'm, you know, excited that you took that methodology. And for me also it was because my Nanihal is Aligarh, as I mentioned. Of course, we are basically from Saharanpur side. So my Nana, he, after getting educated, he shifted to Aligarh as a faculty. And then, you know, the whole family shifted.
and that kind of a way a lot of people there are people who are migrants so to say you know every generation because the city is a lot of that city or part of the city is about a university so the university has a constant you know people are coming going courses students are coming they're going similarly maybe a little slower but faculties also come and go
And some of them really, you know, if they spent a long period of their time, especially, you know, in the previous generation, they settled there. And so we used to go there in our summer vacations. And in the context of the book, I will ask later, there is so much that I had never known and seen. For example, you mentioned about the upper court.
So that for me is, you know, a passing reference to when my nani would be, which we call nani jaan, would be talking to somebody who is an employee, a D class, I don't know, employee would be helping and then they would be arguing, okay, you know, could you help bring something from the upper court? So that's the memory, you know, upper court for me up until now was upper court.
maybe some you know high court upper court it it didn't even trigger me because later also in your book again we'll come back to that how the city got divided in terms of its architecture and its formation so for me also uh who has spent so much time in one part of the city it felt like you've not seen the whole it was just a piece and part of it and that can be said
about anywhere you know even in delhi when we're living and now that i remember about saharan so i don't feel like i know the you know length and breadth of it it's basically your experiences are very uh sharpened towards how you have lived and in which spaces you used to go and most of it is tailored through your generational uh you know history
where is, which mahallas do your relatives live, which mahallas do your friends live, which school you went to. So for me, this book that you've written is enriching in the sense that people think about empires and states and almost all of empire can be conceived within that city itself and we don't even know about that. But
as you've argued and if you've mentioned and you constantly say you're a technologist you're a you're trained technologist and of course i don't believe in that i'm myself from academic background but i left it because i thought that a lot of academia is not doing doing what academics need to do and mostly historically also there is a debate between originality and rigor most of what is original throughout history
doesn't have to come necessarily from academic background. So usually this, you know, the approach that, of course, I think that part of it is fair. Not everybody could do rigorous writing. So that is why you have, say, for example, training in studies. But as somebody who's written a book, which is well received, Dr. Yasmeen Saikia, you know, she reached out to me, had good words to say about it.
She's a prominent academic. So as somebody who's not trained particularly in history writing, what did you learn? What did you face the challenges? What were the historical resources that came to you? How did you untangle them? Because history is messy. I mean, we try to do it all the time in terms of, for example, we're writing on Madrasas. So a thousand year history of Madrasa is specific.
you know context of India. We talked about Waqf and all of that requires you to go through these entangled historical narratives and then you try to undo it and so to say first neutrally you just try to do it. So what did you see? You know, what is the mess? What is the you know easy part? What is the difficult part? And how did it shape you as a thinker that whole process? So I'll first talk about the challenges.
that I saw or experienced during this book writing. And then also I'll tell you how my technology background helped me to solve some of those challenges. So specifically with Aligarh, nobody has written the history before Aligarh Movement except for Jamal Muhammad Siddiqui, who has done an amazing job.
it's a pity we don't talk about that book he did a bigger historical survey he has passed away now but the amount of detail that he went through in those archaeological evidences etc he was from amu he was from amu and so there's one book i will say exception of one book not much is written and even his book also is more limited it kind of tapers off
towards late 1700s and there are still some areas I had to go through some other sources as well. What I'm trying to say here is that specifically with Aligarh's history is very scattered. I'll give you an example. The second chapter, I call it Conquest of Coil, is basically a Delhi Sultanate era. There are 43 unique sources.
could be books, journals, could be biographies, could be English translations of Persians from, for example, Taj al-Masir and by Hassan al-Nizami, the Persian historian. And so you have to look at all these 43 unique sources. You have to figure out where are they talking about quail. Then you have to put them in a chronological
order to make sure they are completing the gaps. And then you have to put it as part of a coherent story to a reader. So reader should not feel how many sources I use. He should not feel if one source was a trained historian versus just a local resident of Koyil.
it's an autobiography etc for him it should come across as one story which he's reading and is part of and is engaged so that was another challenge that i had to put these facts together and say it in a in a very convincing storytelling form that this was happening and so
This is just one example. You will see Mughal period also same challenges. Then after post-Mughal, after Aurangzeb died, I call it shifting powers. So this was the era after 1707 when Aurangzeb died until 1785 when Mahaji Sindhya made Aligarh fort as his headquarter of northern India. So that period was very volatile period. They were
one power taking over Coil and the fort. And here I'm talking about what we call Aligarh fort, which is a newer fort. So as part of this conversation, I just want to make it clear that Aligarh had two forts. The old fort, which was originally the Rajput fort, which doesn't exist today except for a few section of the wall, is the upper court area, upper court. And it literally means fort, upper fort.
That's the old fort. There's a new fort in the north of the city what we call Aligarh fort. So that was built by Sabit Khan in 1717 and he named it Sabitgarh. So that was the era post Aurangzeb that because you know after that we had one Mughal ruler after another we had multiple rulers multiple Mughal rulers within a year and
Regional powers saw that vacuum happening. And they started, you know, trying to claim different territories. So we had these, so I call it shifting powers because of that reason. Because we had Jats coming in, like Surajmal. We had Marathas coming in a little later. We had Mirza Najaf Khan, who was a Mughal commander. He's coming in. We had M.H. Abdali, who came to Aligarh.
plundered Coil, took over the fort. At that time, it was called Ramgarh Fort because it was under the occupation of Suraj Mal. He stayed there for three months. He found it very hot. Maybe he did not have experience because these guys came from... You're talking about the upper court? No, no, the Sabit Khan Fort. So Sabit Khan Fort, 1717, Sabit...
Khan built it, called it Sabitgarh. 1753 Surajmal conquered it and named it Ramgarh. So originally it was a fort built by a Muslim ruler. Spied Sabit Khan called Sabitgarh then it became Ramgarh and then Mirza Najaf Khan in 1785 he conquered it. So he was on deathbed so he asked his commander Afrasiyab Khan to go and conquer it.
And in his honor, I think Mirza Najaf Khan probably never visited the fort because he was suffering from a terminal disease and he died very early as well. Afra Siab Khan was doing most of the work and they threw the feast, called it Aligarh and it became Aligarh Fort. The name of the town never changed. At least there are no historical documents that tell.
that the name of the town changed. It was always called Coil or Coal. Even today? Actually, yes. So if you see the Jama Masjid in the upper court area, there is a police Kothwali right in front of the main entrance. It's called Coil Kothwali. And I think in the official papers also, that area is still called Coil. But, you know, so finally the fort became...
Aligarh fort. And after that, the name of the fort did not change. And what really happened is that there was this old city of coal and coil. There was this Aligarh fort now in the north, about I think six kilometers north. In between that was mostly plains, like there were thickets and bushes.
In fact, Akbar and Jahangir have mentioned in their autobiographies that they used to go hunt wolves and other animals in Coil because they were just filled with all these jungles. But they were villages that were popping up over time. They were a village called Dodpur, which is a very prominent neighborhood now.
I mean, it's a kilometer away from where Maina Nihal is. So we used to, even today, walk to Dodhpur and then the market. What is the name of the market? Amir Nisha. Amir Nisha. We used to buy our clothes when we were young. Very popular market. And then we had other villages like Jamalpur, Bhamola.
Dhorra, it used to be called, in historical documents, it's called Dhorara, but now it's called, it used to be called as Dholera also, but now it's called Dhorra. It's near the medical college, JNMC Medical College. So these villages popped up in between. And then obviously, when the British took over in 1803, they built this whole area and they call it civil lines. They built the bungalows, English-style bungalows. They built kacheri, courts, postal offices.
clock tower etc and so it became a very established area and so slowly you will see that this city started expanding quite more in the north than in the south the city I mean the the coil and this became more like a contiguous city over time and so when the British came when British won the war against the French and the Marathas
in 1804, they formed the district called Aligarh district. I really don't know why they chose Aligarh district, why did not they choose Kohl or Kohl district or why did not they choose any other name. Maybe because Aligarh fort became a very central point for a very long time, right? Like since 1717 when Sabit Khan built it.
so I think they just wanted to use that name to name the district as Aligarh so I want to go back to the question you were asking me earlier when did I mean you mentioned about it when it became Aligarh but what is the etymology of the name Aligarh I think it's probably because Mirza Najaf Khan was a Shia
And I think it was in reverence of Ali, one of the companions of the Prophet. That's why it was named Aligarh. And yeah, and you know, interesting thing is Marathas came, captured it. In 1785, they did not change the name. They kept it as Aligarh. And the British came, they kept it as Aligarh. This fort
eventually became the name of the district itself. And so there are nuances behind the name of the city, of the district. So the fort was named Aligarh? The fort, yes. The fort area. Yeah, the fort was named Aligarh by Mirza Najaf Khan. And then it expanded and ultimately the whole of the district came to be known. It became more contiguous city and then the British decided to call it a...
the whole district. They included some other I think Sikandarabad and one more place together and called it Aligarh district. Claude Russell was the first district magistrate of the district and we have a locality called Russell Ganjturi named after him. It's a very densely packed locality in the Sheher area, in the old city area that is colloquially
called as Sheher even today. Let's go back to history furthermore. As you already mentioned, you really say that it's 1194 when the concrete history writing happens during the conquest of Coel. So let us talk about it more. What is happening at that time? What is the overall historical context? And you talk about conversion narratives and other things.
So let's unpack. So let's go a little bit back before 1194 to better understand 1194. So there was this one of the dual Rajput ruler Har Dutta. He is very prominent because he helped build the fort at Meerut.
which is also called. You can also talk about you know because you're talking about Rajputs and others. What is the sociology of that region? Who are the people living there in terms of plans and other things? Sure and then and he also helped build the fort at Coil also Har Dutta. So these door Rajputs
I don't know if today we know people who call themselves Dole Rajputs and still live in that area. I believe they migrated, quite a lot migrated after the Ghaznavids attack. Because it was Mehmood Ghazni who attacked Bulansher around 180 years earlier in 1018. He captured Baran or Bulansher where Hardatta was.
Hardatta apparently converted to Islam and he interestingly, he went south because if you look today, Bulanshar is in the north of Aligarh and then if you go further down, you will have Mathra and then Agra on the other side. He went to Mathra after that, a place, Mahaban, you know, and then for some reason he skipped Quail.
You know, Al Udhbi, he was one of the chronicler of that time. He does not even mention Coil. Maybe Coil was not important enough. Maybe the Coil fort was not strategic enough. And then he bypasses it. We don't know. At least I did not know in my research what was the reason. And he skips it, goes to Mathura, does what he did at that time.
And that's it. And he returned. So one of the effects that happened of that conquest is a lot of these door rush posts migrated out. And they moved out even at that time. But I think some of them still stayed there in these forts. And because they continued to stay until 1194 when Qutub-ud-Din Abaq and Muhammad Ghori attacked Koyle.
So in 1192, they first attacked Meerut and Bulansher. Then something happened and Qutub-ud-Din Abaq went back to Afghanistan. We have some ideas why he returned back, but it's not very clear. He went there for six, seven months and then he decided to come back. And then he went on to capture Koyle in 1194.
that's very interesting that capture of coil because that's when you see these rich amount of detail that starts getting documented who is documenting it so there's this 12th century persian historian hassan nizami he's from originally from nishabad iran and he's nishapur
Nishapur, sorry. Nishapur is where Imam al Ghazali used to live. Okay, Nishapur, yes. And he's known as one of the first chroniclers who have started documenting the history of Delhi Sultanate. But just amazing if you read his Taj al-Masir, which is more a poetry mixed with, in Persian, but mixed with Arabic.
as well. He gives very superfluous description of the battle, superfluous description of Qutub-ud-Din Abaq, also Muhammad Ghori. He doesn't tell the name of the Raja who was in the fort during that battle in 1194. That was a pivotal battle in the history of Koyal.
but he goes on to such amazing detail that when you read you will figure out that you know this is eight centuries old but the amount of detail that he puts for example he talks about this battle which is a pre-dawn battle during the summer nights in 590 hijri and
He tells about that, okay, it was a pre-dawn time and he could see the fort, which was the Dor Rajput Fort, which is now Upparkot or Upparkot in Aligarh. It's on a mound, on an elevated ground, and the top of the wall can reach the top of the sky and he can see constellation Gemini.
then he goes and talks about these ropes and the walls were extended all the way to the horizon and he can see Mars moon and pieces constellation now this is very interesting by itself that he's talking to that detail of that battle but you know I'm into astronomy I give public talks and on astronomy in Austin as well as one of my other interests
And so I have a software that simulates the sky. So I said, you know, let's just try it. I looked up. So I used my software, put Aligarh as the location, put 1194, picked one of the summer nights. And I got the exact same sky, which I have put in my book as well. At the end, you will see there's a sky map. And it confirms what Hassan Nizami is mentioning about that battle.
And this is the level of richness of detail. But there is a lot more to it. If you look at the British gazetteers, so we have a prominent saint in Aligarh, Shah Jamal, Shamsul Arfin. And the British gazetteers mention about that Shah Jamal actually visited a few days before the battle happened.
He visited Coil and he was I think outside the boundary of Coil and they went on to say that he was probably a spy. Although we don't know about it. We can't confirm it or maybe you can't deny it too. But he says probably was a spy. He was a Tatar Darwish. He was there with his grandfather and they took part in the battle.
And there are other details from other chronicler like Raja Muhammad Kolvi. Tatar dervish meaning from Central Asia. So that is the kind of mobility that is happening during that time. Absolutely. That we maybe don't imagine today. We don't imagine today. The boundaries and everything. Hassan Nizami came from Persia. I mean these were all Central Asian.
people right there are a lot more detail for example there are some traditional account and again you know rajay muhammad colby he wrote this chronicle in 1740 called akhbar al jamal it's written in classical persian i tried to get the translation of it i i reached out to people all over the world can you do it if you talk to
persians who speak persians today they said they can't because it's classical persons i reached out to some of the folks in the persian department at aligarh muslim university um unfortunately i could not so i had to reliable rely on the second resources on what he said mentioned about um mr jamal muhammad did a great job of uh provided that material what he was talking about so then there are um traditional account details like there was a storm
just before the battle and because these were more saintly people like Shah Jamal and his grandfather and they said that they did some prayers and and the storm went away and then they decided there will be two people whose tents were not they were not swept away by the storm they will lead the
These are not in Taj al-Masir by Hassan al-Nizami. These are Raja Muhammad Kowalvi and probably other traditional accounts. And the battle happened. Shah Jamal was killed in the battle. The dervish. The dervish. And many other folks. So he was a warrior saint? He was probably a warrior saint. I don't know about it. But he's a very...
venerated saint in Aligarh, probably the most venerated. There is a locality called Jamalpur up in the north. You might have heard about it. That was a village that was built for the murids of Shah Jamal and it was made tax-free because of that reason. So, the Shah Jamal Shamsud Arfin had a very prominent role. So,
The battle happened. Eventually, Qutub-ud-Din Aibak won. But Hasan Nizami mentions a lot about the defenders. They were very, very strong-hearted. They defended the fort to the last breath. Eventually, Qutub-ud-Din Aibak army probably was much more massive, much more trained, much more experienced.
They won the battle and then he talks about I think the next day the Emperor so he calls King Referring to Qutub-ud-Din Abaq. He called Emperor referring to Muhammad Ghori because Qutub-ud-Din Abaq was a commander. He was not he has not become the Emperor yet and So he talks about in a superfluous poetic way and
that section I had to use so many double quotes because I just did not want people to read that and say okay it's coming from me those you know very poetic form of writing it's like state-sponsored writing probably it was of that time of that time and like he was like the way he was describing the emperor and the dust that was almost supernatural yes almost supernatural
And so he talks about the booty of the war. There were elephants and horses. He talks about the beauty of the horses and the gold and lots of other things that were eventually caught it. But they did not. So they did not stay. They went to go after Jaicheng. You might have heard about it, right?
There is a story about Jai Chandra that he invited these foreign invaders. So Jai Chandra's sister eloped with Prithviraj Chauhan. And Prithviraj Chauhan at that time was a prominent ruler, king.
and so the it's not historically proven most likely it is not true and there are reasons for that but Jai Chandra as what is known in some popular history segments is that he invited the foreign invaders to fight against Prithviraj Chauhan because his sister eloped with him but anyway so if I go back to my story the
Khutabuddin Abaq and Muhammad Ghori they went after him eventually they beat him near a place in Agra and some town I'm forgetting and eventually they go and win it then they come back again and there were lots of Badgujars or Bargujars so that was the starting of an era where you know Khutabuddin Abaq went to form the Mamluk dynasty
And then we had one Sultan after the other Sultan all the way until we have Mughal invasion in 1526. There are lots of interesting events and stories and places during the Delhi Sultanate. One of the prominent is the Koyil Minar. This was built by Ghiyasuddin Balban, who's buried near Kotob Minar in Delhi. He became, he was made the governor of Koyil.
and he commissioned Koyil Minar in 1254. And we don't know, there are many theories why the Minar was built. It could be considered as a victory tower. It could be considered as a Minar to the mosque because it's next to the mosque. It was next to the mosque. And there are several theories about it.
If you read the inscription of the Minar, it doesn't mention about the mosque. It does talk about the Yasudin Balban. And this inscription is there today if you go to Musa Daqri Museum at Aligarh Muslim University. But we don't know. I personally think it was a victory tower which happened to be built next to the mosque. So my book has one only surviving picture of that Koyal Minar.
It was taken by British before it was completely destroyed by the British after the 1857 War of Independence. So it stood for at least 600 years. It stood over six centuries. But if you look at the account of some of the travelers, for example, William Finch or actually Peter Mundy, he visited Coil during the time of Shah Jahan in 1631.
And he also mentions that there are only two stories left. So actually Minar had three stories. So I have actually put my sketch also of the Minar next to the mosque in the book. So it shows three stories. It was built partly of the Lakhori bricks and partly of Kankar blocks. It had a doorway. You can kind of compare it to the Kutub Minar because they were the same people.
it had a doorway there was inscription on the top it was built on a square platform and it was built on the southwest of so the the upper court mosque is facing west right so it was on the south east southeast side of the mosque so these minars were conceptually
speaking the symbols of sovereignty over land. I believe so. Architecturally speaking, that could signify a uniquely Kutubuddi, Naibak or Delhi Sultanate style of architecture. I believe so. And so this Minar stood there for a very long time. It was, in fact, there were other accounts by other
um travelers like thomas twining who visited in 1794 during the time of benoit de boina he was a french commander in alliance with the marathas he talks about he goes on elephant coil he was not very impressed by the minar because it was in a bad shape he talks about the moss there but but it was finally
demolished by the British because we know after the 1857 they did the same thing in Delhi also in Shahjahanabad all the buildings between the Jama Masjid and the fort were completely wiped out same thing they did to the Coil Minar also they gave some excuse the person who did it but people knew it was because of you know they just wanted to wipe out the history and so it was destroyed but
Saussure d'Armachand himself was a big fan of history. He goes and salvages some of the broken pieces and he's able to get the inscription which is at the Musa Daqiri Museum. This inscription was actually pasted on a wall of a room.
in the you know at that time MAO college. It stayed there for a very long time until 2019 when the some of the members of the department of history did a great job of extracting from the wall and then they took it and put it on the display at Musa Dhakri museum. So Syed Ahmed Khan I think is one of the first people to write the architectural history from the Indian Muslim perspective or Muslim perspective in India.
Of course, we'll come back to that because it's a later part of the history. You've also mentioned about the economic advantages that Koyle had to whoever was conquering it. So in the time of Alauddin Khilji, you talk about the revenue system that was there. So how was the relationship between what was shaping to become Aligarh in terms of the formation of the Sultanate?
How was it managed? What was the political and economic relationship between the people living there and the people who had conquered them or ruling over them? Right. So Coil at that time had a lot of advantages in terms of the alluvial soil that was there. It became a great wine production place during the time of one of the, I believe, the Khalji Sultan.
so even under muslim rule oh yes it was producing good quality oh yeah and they were they were used in the feast and festivities in delhi at that time uh so illegal coil was known for wine production at some point of time uh indigo plantation has been there all the way until the british time in that in that area let's talk about the geography i mean uh this is delhi there's agra you know in terms of that what is the uniqueness of this region yeah so
Aligarh is a very interesting place because it's somewhere in between but it's not there. Aligarh has always been overshadowed by the big capitals, Agra and Delhi. There was so much focus by the Mughals and others between Delhi and Agra that Aligarh kind of lost its glory. Because of Yamuna and they're actually on the banks of rivers. And Yamuna doesn't go through Aligarh.
So it bypassed, it's away from Aligarh. And so that could be one reason that connects Agra and Delhi a lot more prominently. But Aligarh was always at a crossroad. You will see today that if you look at the map, it kind of, if you look at Aligarh, Delhi and Agra, it's kind of a triangle. But it used to be a very common path for travelers. So that's why there are lots of serais in Aligarh. They're still neighborhoods.
uh just outside the coil walls so there are sarays like hakim sarai sarays by the way are these places where travelers used to stay correct they're like these uh uh what you you could say in u.s uh these are highway hotels on the highway exactly and so sarays were built just outside the
the wall because they did not want to pay taxes if they are within the city but they also have security or closeness enough to get full security of the city and you will see that tons of sarais around in now it's part of that so they were privately owned or they were owned by we don't know we know somewhere i think sarai hakim was by this hakim who built it in as late as 1805
um but there are other others arise also um at least i have not found anything in the documented history who built it but there are names there must be something to the name why they are the name is there but they are all over around aligarh and one of the reason is because it was at the crossroads of many of these paths and you will see other examples for example balun lodi when he was traveling from gavalia to delhi he died on the way
and there is a whole story about it, very interesting story is I believe he died in Eta district but they came, so there was a struggle, inheritance struggle after Bailul Lodi who is going to become the next Sultan. So, there were two brothers. The Lodi dynasty. Yes, one brother was Nizam Khan who would eventually become Sikandar Lodi and then his brother.
The mother of Nizam Khan was a goldsmith. So she was not part of the elite or royal family. Her father, I believe, was a Hindu goldsmith. But she, along with Omar Khan Sherwani, who was a prominent governor of Goel at that time, and a couple of other people, what they decided is that let's not tell everyone.
or anyone that Balu Lodi has died, they quietly bring Nizam Khan, the future Sikandar Lodi, near the bank of Kali Nadi which goes close to Jelali. And the reason they picked the river was because
if they had to do any coronation they had access through the river so they could bring armies or regiments whatever is needed to do that ceremony and so what they did is that they they brought him they did a very hasty ceremony and called him the Sultan before his brother could get a chance and they declared him the Sultan because I think the
odds were against them because he was not from a royal family. His blood was not from a royal family. So you will see that there are lots of examples. For example, Baba's wife, the mother of Humayun, she stopped by Naligarh and Baba had to send the palanquin to
and the wife and the sister of Humayun. And so you will see there are events and stories where Aligarh happened to be on the crossroads. If you're coming from Gwalior, for example, from Agra, from Delhi and other places. So it was always like a junction. It's like a junction. And that's why it played a crucial role. But it was always overshadowed by the big capitals like the Delhi and Agra.
So coming back to what was the revenue or the economy or what was it? You know you were talking about Indigo and other things. Yes, yes.
we know some parts i think this the economy becomes a lot more prominent during the mughal rule especially under akbar and others which they formalize many of these uh dastur and mahal and subal etc but during the delhi sultanate we have some examples like we talk about the wine production we talk about the indigo production that was happening there we don't have a lot more detail about the the the revenue or you know what they were doing except for some of these pieces that we are
trying to put together during the Delhi Sultanate. So you also mentioned that you've talked about the forts and how would they build but you specifically talk about this change of sovereignty that happens.
I think there is a lot of shifting happening between the ownership and sovereignty of that region in a very quick succession. Specifically after the post-Mughal era, when the Mughals were declining, after the Aurangzeb. Especially after the decline of Aurangzeb. And it was happening everywhere. Bengal was going through, the Nawabs were rising, the Zams.
so this is happening in a you talk about how you know that quote is bought that fort is brought so what what is about uh what is it about you know people paying east india company to it this there was some mention in the book of uh you know the phone being bought successively by different people it was brought under their control by different people yeah so like i mentioned in the earlier part of the the podcast right so
The fort started with Sabit Khan, the governor, very prominent governor. Sabit Khan has his own story. I can go, I will go into detail later on. In 1717, he builds the fort. We don't know, or at least I could not find anything in my research work. What was the reason to build that fort up north, you know, like around six kilometers up north from the...
the old city of Koyal. He builds it, stays under him. So something paradoxical happens after Aurangzeb died in 1707. There were regional wars going on because of the power vacuum, etc. But paradoxically in Aligarh, first few decades were very stable because of Sadak Khan.
He brought in a lot more control, a lot more. He completely transformed the architecture of Aligarh. He built the Sabitgarh fort. He rebuilt the Jama Masjid. Just before he rebuilt, it was partly collapsed due to an earthquake. And he completely demolishes it, builds it afresh.
So the current form that we see is by him. You can see his inscription and his name there if you go there. Even Jama Masjid that you've mentioned has also built a couple of times. It has built at least six times. Over how long? So again, I won't say these are, some could be like, you know, for example, Raja Muhammad Kholvi, the person who is written this mystical chronicle, right? Akbarul Jamal.
He talks about that it was first built by Qutub-ud-Din, although there is no evidence to prove it. It has also been built by Iltatmish, Islamsur and others. Before it was brought down completely because it was just partly destroyed by the earthquake and then he builds it afresh. Sabeq Khan, we see that mosque today. So he builds
Other than Jama Masjid and the Sabitgarh fort, he built Moti Masjid that is still there. In fact, if you go there, you can see the domes are, you can make out that this is a few centuries old domes. But they have changed quite other parts of the building. He also reinforced the wall around Coil. So there was a wall, there were actually three walls around Coil. So each were built in different stages.
There was an American scholar, Howard Hurt from University of Pennsylvania. He writes in his PhD thesis in 1950s and he does a very great job and I've included that in my book as well.
This was the first wall, second wall, third wall, and there's a map there. And so they were kind of expanding like a concentric circle, right? The inner wall, the smallest one and the bigger. So, Savit Khan reinforces that wall. But Savit Khan also does things in other towns like Jalali. He renovates the Jama Masjid there, etc. So, he was into, and then he has done other things as well.
He kind of changed the landscape, in my opinion, of Coel. But he was also known for his philanthropy. He used to pay rupees 1200, I think, daily to poor. At that time, obviously, that was a big amount. This was happening in 1700s. Early 1700s, yeah. Because he died in 1730. So all this happening before that. And then my book talks about the social mobility within the Mughal because he started as a piyada, like a messenger.
uh and then he goes to become the governor of the for the the foshdar and the governor of quail uh later on he knows the class under farroks farroksiar he proved his uh metal uh in front of the emperor uh he knew how to go up the ranks and i think he did success very successfully um after he died then again chaos starts and his son fateh fateh khan fateh ali khan i think um
He goes and then there's a story of him being very close to Jat Maharaja Suraj Mal. Then there have been poems written about their friendship etc. But Fateh Ali Khan was not as capable. Then we see Maharaja Suraj. So one of the local powers that took advantage of the power vacuum was the Jats. He was ruling from Bharatpur.
Surajmal and we also had Mahaji Sindhia, the Marathas who were expanding the territory. Marathas as in from Maharashtra? Yes. Said they've expanded this much that it's almost Aligarh. Yes, actually they go and go all the way to Delhi. They became very powerful and then obviously there was a
internal conflict that happened among the Marathas, within the Marathas that kind of brings it down but under Mahaji Sindhya that branch of Marathas did very well and so very well as in how in terms of the expanding their territories and conquests oh yeah so at that time the Mughal rulers who were there in 1700 they had nominal role they were just
by the title only. The real rulers were these regional powers like the Mahajis, Indias. So going back a little bit early, so Suraj Mal captures it, calls it Ramgarh. He expands the fort quite a lot. His son Jawahar Singh and others, they expand it quite a bit. Then M.S. Shabdali comes in. He plunders Sax, Delhi and all that and then he goes further down and
in 1760, I believe, that's when he plunders Coil. He stays in a house of Sabit Khan that used to exist at that time in Coil. Then he goes up north to the fort, at that time it was Ramgarh fort. Actually, so there are maps I've put in the book, the British map of that time where it shows Ramgarh.
referring to the fort and then coal referring to the town. So there's a map which shows Ramgarh there. Let's talk about British, French. We've been talking about the Mughals, the Delhi Sultanate. We've come to discuss about the Marathas. During all of this time, British and other global colonial powers have also become prominent.
in terms of their intervention, their conquest of India. So, what is their role in terms of this region? What was their presence? So, maybe before the British, we can talk about French. Yes, all of these, French, British, the European powers. So, Mahaji Sindhya, I think, was a visionary. He noticed
the technological advancement that French could bring like they have done in the forts back in France. And from the French point of view, it was also an opportunity for them to put their feet within Hindustan when East India Company was expanding as well. So this is the era of the Second Anglo-Maratha War in late 1700s.
There is an alliance between the Marathas and the French, and that's why my chapter is called One Fortress, Two Powers, because essentially they were two powers. They were sharing the fort and the whole region, territory. So General de Buena, he was an exceptional leader. Actually, people used to talk about him in other parts of the country.
very well known for his vision. He not only advanced or improved or enhanced the Aligarh fort, he also built the army of people from all over, the Europeans, the Rohillas. They were a group of people called Ali Ghuls.
who were part of his army. Ali Ghuls. Ali Ghuls. Nothing to do with Aligarh, but Ali Ghuls. Is there a certain meaning to the word? I don't know. I'm sure there is. And then he got really all types of Europeans in the army. And not only in the army, he also expanded the economy of the region, of Aligarh district.
He brought in a lot of indigo planters. Indigo planters from where? From Europe. They settled down, they built their plantation in different places like Jallali, Madrak.
many other small towns in the district around Koyil and Aligarh Fort. So late 1700s was an era of lot of economic expansion by the Europeans. And there was no, you know, nobody was complaining about it. Locals were not complaining about it. They were fine with it. And so he expanded the economy. And there were lots of money lenders called Sarafs in the area.
and so until 1796, so he came to Aligarh in 1791. He left Aligarh in 1796 because his health was deteriorating. He completely transformed the Aligarh district. During his time, I think the French had a lot more prominence. Now
after he left Peron, Pierre Coulier Peron, he was made the commander. Peron was an interesting character. He had, you will see one after the other, he had very interesting part in the story of Aligarh. One, I think
I felt he was an opportunist. He had 290,000 pounds worth of stocks in East India Company who they were fighting against. So you can see like you don't want to lose your such a big amount which is equivalent to few million dollars today. So his loyalty already was kind of fragile to fight against the British and then
Very interesting thing happened in the battle of Aligarh in 1803 where he flees the battle just a couple of days before the battle actually happened. And I think that his investment in East India Company had a part to play as part of it. The French leader had already invested in East India Company seeking that in the future maybe
he knew that the British and he made a lot of money he would return back to France he had a big castle today also Perron they are paintings of his daughter he one of the wives was the Indian origin so you can see in the complexion of the daughter and others you beautiful painting there in France so he but he became very popular in Aligarh and he was
He initially used to live in a garden house where Malkhan Singh Hospital is. So there's a Malkhan Singh Hospital in the older city, older part. It's next to Rasalganj. And that area was called Piranganj in his honor. Then eventually he got Bhamola village by the emperor. And then he built a garden house there.
which eventually became Sulaiman Hall today of Aligarh Muslim University, one of the oldest residential halls. So if you go to the Sulaiman Hall, you will see an inscription on top of the gate, mentions his name, 1802, when he got it built. He has a garden house inside it. And there are other battles I mentioned about that he participated, along with Pedron, who was another leader of the army on the French side.
Actually, Peron was also thinking of making a lot more prominent French presence, a French army presence in Hindustan. He sends a secret emissary to Napoleon and tells him that, you know, huge gains to be made here. We need more soldiers, etc. But that plan eventually never happened.
uh because he got stuck with other other maratha conflicts elsewhere it didn't work out but he was a shrewd person i think he was an opportunist and then you know he fled the battle in fact there is a very interesting conversation between him and james skinner so james skinner is the guy who built the skinner's horse skinner's horse is still an indian army regiment even today
was built by. He participated in the battle, James Skinner. James Skinner was one of the few Anglo-Indian soldiers within the Maratha, Sindhya army. And they were at Aligarh fort, him and a few other people. They did not want to fight the British.
because they themselves were of the same origins right and so perron what they did they said okay i'll let you go i won't pay you any more salary you can go so they went uh they left and then and then what happened is that um so initially uh gerald lake who was the british commander he was sent from kanpur with his army to come and
fight against the Marathas. So he first comes and gets stationed at Sikandarabad. He gets ordered, hey, you have a full authority to start this war campaign. This was part of the second Anglo-Maratha war. And then, so they come geographically, the Sikandarabad, sorry, Sikandar Rao is on the south, southeast of Aligarh.
And so he comes from there. And if you look at the geography of Aligarh, Coil is at the south and then Aligarh Fort is on the top. So Lake hears that, okay, Peron is actually stationed in the Coil town. So he says, let's not attack the fort first, let's attack the town. And so he takes his army and there were Morasses on the way. They kind of go around it and then they stop.
just when they can actually see the Jama Masjid of the Khoid. And then there were initial skirmish happens between the British and the French who were defending the Khoid town. And most of the, you know, most of the artillery that was used by the French did not even hit the target. They went elsewhere, etc. But British did a really good job. And then the whole French army, along with Sindia.
Sepoys or soldiers at that time. They were in disarray. That was a time when Pedron said, okay, I'm giving up. You guys take care of it. He actually writes a letter to Pedron. Hey, you take care of this. I'm going, I have to settle some business in Agra, blah, blah, blah. And on the way back, he meets James Skinner, who he just released a few days back. And James Skinner says, why are you running away?
uh you know you should be defending your people you should be defending the cindyans and he says uh he just comes up with some all the reasons and then the skinner was so angry and at that time actually james skinner did not even want to go and join the british but his colleagues convinced him we should join them and then eventually he does join the british he meets uh peron
disheveled and headless on a horse with few horsemen running away near Sassney Gate. This Sassney Gate is one of the seven gates that were around the coal town. Now they don't exist, only the neighborhoods by that name exist. So Skinner and his friends see him and he's disheveled and headless and then
And then Skinner is showing you are running away, you know, etc, etc. But eventually Perron runs away, never returns back. And again, there were other interesting thing happens before the actual battle happened in September 1803. This was also a time of the late monsoon. It was a very hot summer.
Although this was late August early September. It was so hard that the British soldiers they had to drink from the muddy water because It was just so hard. There was an earthquake on 1st of September many of the buildings in Kuala Lumpur were destroyed So there were things interesting thing and there's a lot more store to this story in the book and you know I'm kind of paraphrasing and summarizing some of these and there was this politics happening where
So after Gerald Lake conquers the coiled town, he hasn't still gone to the fort. He takes his soldiers in the north in the Sahib Bagh or the Sulaiman Hall and he gets all his soldiers inside there. By this time Peron has fled away and many other Maratha soldiers as well and from there he starts negotiating with the
especially with the European commanders and the French commanders on the Sindhya side in the fort. We'll give you this much money. Pedron was kind of convinced at one point of time until all the soldiers over there had to tie him by the rope. No, you can't go there. And there were lots of interesting things happening between both the sides. The thing is that at that time, I think all these people had some
experience with the other side now they are enemies the British are fighting against the French and the Marathas but the French also had many in Deboina and Peron they also had worked in with East India Company with the British troops etc many several years back so it's not like they did not know each other they knew each other some were very very loyal to who they were fighting for some were more opportunist I think in my opinion like Peron and so the battle takes place
Many of the people get killed on both the sides. Colonel Pedron survives. Many other folks are also survived. This fort was supposed to be the impregnable fort of Hindustan. But the British captured it in one hour. It also tells you that the technologically British were way advanced. They had proven it in Coil when they...
you know beat Peron and the Sindhia army they proved against capturing it so fast. There were stories about the about the fort that the you know the the moat around it was so wide that the big ships could sail through it etc and one after the other. People have written satires of the these are satires only but that there were lions and tigers in the Sindhia army who would defend the fort and etc etc all this turned out to be
uh fluff in my opinion because it got captured very very quickly we've talked about so much in the relatively longer history and we've almost reached to the point where you know 1857 has just at the door it is where it is often argued the whole history of muslims in india changed significantly it is almost the point wherein the sovereignty so to say of the muslim life
got compromise diluted and they became not the directing and governing force of the region, but a minority to be governed and addressed. You talked about the French and then there is this context of the British. But before going beyond, it is always said that the British had divide and rule policy.
But only those could be divided what certain things to be divided upon if there is some tension historical past And given the time that you are living in there's almost always this question of a communal past which has been deployed Which has been argued over which has been weaponized To get these two communities, which is the Hindus and the Muslims in India to be at odds with each other constantly You know focusing on the differences
Is there a communal past? How deep is it when it comes to Aligarh perspective? What is the inheritance when Sir Syed, post 1857, of course we'll also talk about 1857 per se, what is the British doing? But what is the historical context in terms of the Hindu-Muslim relations vis-a-vis Aligarh, so to say? No, I don't think so. I think in the early days of the Aligarh movement,
they were almost equal contribution by both the Hindus and Muslims to the movement in support of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan like Raja Pratap Singh one of the big benefactor to the movement and then many other... What was his reasoning? Why was he contributing to a Muslim college? So I don't know if you know although the
intent of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan started from the way he was seeing the declining role of the Muslim community, especially post 1857. But I really don't think so that his focus was only to educate Muslims or only to make it exclusively for Muslims.
He had always talked about the both Hindus and Muslims working together. In fact, I remember he mentioned in one of the courts that India is like a bride with two eyes. One is Hindu, one is Muslim. I think he understood that there are differences. He understood that Britain, the East India Company or the
British Raj had done enough divide and rule and enough damage to cause disparity between both of them. But he still, in my opinion, believed in the unity between both. There is nothing that I know of that he has talked about in the past, which even comes closer to being biased, you know, once against the other one.
they were always contribution from both the both the communities, but obviously this was primarily like I said started with the intention to Bring up the Muslim community. So there were lots of I would say mostly contributions by the Muslims And and you can see one example after the other
But it doesn't take away the role of the non-Muslims as part of this. So, and you know, then we people talk about two-nation theory, etc. And they say like, you know, Sir Sayyidina Muhammad Khan is a progenitor of that two-nation theory. But I don't think so. He did mention about a two Qaum, you know, Hindus and Muslims. But Qaum,
necessarily doesn't mean a nation right it means two communities and so it is very very important to keep it very distinct what his intention was how he was trying to bring both the communities together he always
emphasize on the role of them working together. And you will see that even in the history of Aligarh Muslim University, there have been roles by the non-Muslims one after the other, especially in the earlier days of the university. So, just before Sir Syed, of course Sir Syed and others, including the Devban movement and other movements, so to say, are responding to this.
crisis of identity of Indian Muslims after the decline of the Mughal sovereignty, especially after 1857. So 1857 is seen as, for example, in Delhi and from Delhi to Moksalef directions, wherever you go, there were so many ulemas that were hanged or killed after the rebellion. So what is that rebellion in the context of Aligarh?
as a space and time what are the uh you know people who are these people who are involved in that what is the uh what is the cost of that rebellion to that city and to muslims and others in the city because it is not just the muslims 1857 rebellion also had you know so many hindus who were part of the whole schema against the british rule so how did aligarh
experience that rebellion and who were the people involved and what was the cost of it sure so it's very interesting i mean the the trigger point of the rebellion in aligarh uh was a hanging of a brahman named narayan so you know as this rebellion started mirrored in other parts of the country
Initially it was quiet in Aligarh but there was a rumor that this person by the name of Narayan who was a Brahmin is planning to do something bad to the British officers and it was kind of overheard in a wedding in some place in Aligarh and just based on those rumors
He was prosecuted very quickly and he was given the hanging death by hanging and he was on 19th May 1857 at Adigarh Parade ground he was hung. So there are primary accounts of the British officers who were asked to come and witness it.
And they also were accompanied by the sepoys, the Indian sepoys. So initially the hanging, it was I think in the evening at 5 p.m. It went without any incidents. But suddenly when the officers and the sepoys started moving away, there was one of the guys among the regiment started shouting.
they have killed our priest and and he keeps on like you know overly emotional and this triggered rest of the troops to get agitated and that's where it started many of these the British officers had to flee away their families had to go down to
Hathras and others take refuge. There were lots of burning of the offices in the city and it just spreaded from there. It spread to, first started in Coil at that time and then it spread to nearby villages and towns. At that time I think the British had no choice but to run away, to flee away and they did.
And there were many indigo planters who had to flee away. The indigo plantation factory at Madrak is a very prominent at that time by a family by the last name Nectarline. Some of these families are buried at the Christian Cemetery near Libya College and Tasweer Mahal in Aligarh. And so the factory was burned down.
So eventually there's a whole detail to the story in the book and they had to flee away. Then there was also a very interesting thing happened on 2nd of July 1857. Many of these people including Maulana Abdul Jalil who is buried at Jama Masjid and then many other
folks from around the town they formed these local panchayat to stop plundering they said that we will form these bylaws to govern our city when the British are not there they have fled away and they did that successfully for many weeks several weeks eventually there were disputes among them
and it kind of dissolved after some time but it was very interesting event um now you know the british they gathered back in different parts mainly nagra tried to get the reinforcement back and come back again um they went came from south to the to aligarh and then they started capturing some towns after the other towns
And there was a fight between the British and the whole group of people led by Abdul Jalil. And eventually they lost their lives. Over 70 people, they lost their lives and their graves are right now in Jama Masjid in Aligarh. So British keep coming back.
they eventually took control I believe on 5th of October 1857 so it was from 19 May to October a few months time when the British had to flee then they reinforced back came back then they chased other rebels in Khorija and many other towns in the Aligarh district eventually they got control over it so
There were also lots of non-Muslims who rebelled against the British in different parts. They were punished as well. So it was a combined movement from both the communities who were fighting against the common enemy. And so that's what it started and then of course once British took over then
They severely punished the local community, the rebels. There's also a very interesting story of how French families that I've been talking about, they had to survive it. For example, George Paish. So he was born in Mamu Bhanja area. It's a neighborhood in Old City. He learned Persian and Urdu.
Eventually he became a very popular Urdu shire and he used the nickname Shor. He learned under the supervision of his nana Frances Coyne. He was in the court of Begum Samru in Sardana near Meerut. So anyway, his family
And the Pedron family who also had a house in a neighborhood called Pedronganj or Pedruganj. That locality was named after that family. And so they were rebels who came to their house. Their wives had to wear burqa to flee away. They had to hide behind firewoods.
there are there's a lot more detail and and very interesting story how rebels came back again eventually they got refused by a local race khushwakt ali khan and many of the female members of these french families took refuge in his house eventually the british took control back and then you know and they were actually given some
some money by the British because they went through the whole ordeal etc. So many interesting things happened in that Indian rebellion of 1857 in Aligarh. So how did it change the overall landscape when in October the British took over and they re-established their rule so to say in the broader
North Indian region and other regions, but specifically to Aligarh. What happened after that? What is the kind of civil society that established? Why did, so to say, Aligarh became one of those places where Sir Syed being part of the British government imagined that this is somewhere, even though there is a context of 1857 here also.
Why did he think that this is a good place to, you know, think about his vision? Right. So many interesting things happened post 1857. One, I'll just go back to Coil Minar. Also talk about this, you know, the two Aligars that was produced. So it builds into the context. I think we missed it. The French, you talked about it, the French built.
the city in a way and then how did that in this period is shaping Aligarh as a city, as a space, how are communities living, how are they divided, who's living where. So all of this let us try to bring together in this context why you know AMU in geographical space of Aligarh also where is it imagined.
Sure, so I think even before 1857 the British already started a project of developing the civil lines in the north of the city. So they had recently laid a railway track which kind of divided the old city, the Sheher area from the civil lines area in the north.
and the civilized area was they built bungalows in British style, the postal offices, the kachari or the court rooms, the roads. So they already had put together an infrastructure for some project to come. Of course nobody knew at that time but after 1857 when the Aligarh movement started
the main roots of the buildings and the structure that were part of the MAO College, they took shape in the civil lines area. Many, so if you see today all the Victoria Gate and Stretchy Hall and all the different buildings over there, they were inside the civil lines area.
Today, the staff, the faculty, they live in different parts of the civilized area where they get these housing by the universities, etc. So that infrastructure, I think, was already set up pre-1857. And then they obviously took and built several new buildings and also took some of the buildings that were already there to make it part of the MAO College.
57 is also an era of when there was a lot more established factories and companies that came for example the lock factory the johnson lock factory established in aligarh um uh there were lots of other industries that were set up who were setting them up why were they british uh yeah the british mostly the under the help of the british i think they wanted to
to expand more and so I think those were kind of things probably in my opinion were helping you know with the with the some of these colleges that were set up like the MAO colleges at the same time and so yeah I mean how was
How was Sir Syed able to deal with the British for the space? What was the struggle? Why did he choose Aligarh itself? Sure, so you know right the Sir Syed always believed in the British education right for the Muslim because he felt that for the Muslim community especially for them to rise up they should adopt western education and for that he got
you know attacked criticize whatever you call it from both the both from the Muslim community and you know and also from a for from others as well because it was kind of you know being in favor of the British in fact in the early in the days of the legal movement he
um he had disagreements with other founders of the legal movement because he was showing too much favor to the british and so i mean i think could you highlight some of these names like um like vikarul mulk and mohsinul mulk um at some one point of time they felt that he he was
showing too much favor to the English, to the British at that time. Also, there was this relationship with Theodore Beck, the principal of the MAO College, and Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. The MAO College is basically, so to say, the College of British in terms of its ownership. Is it a state-owned college or is it a...
It was a British college. So, Sir Syed negotiated that the state should build a college for Muslims in this way. And interestingly actually sometime earlier, Sir Syed actually wanted to start a vernacular university in Urdu medium. But that was put down by the British also that it won't work. He eventually gave up the idea.
eventually moved on to adopting the British education in English. So what was Sir Syed's role in the British government? I think there were several strategic reasons Sir Syed Ahmed Khan picked Aligarh. One is there was no existing college or government college in Aligarh at that time. Like, you know, if you compare to Allahabad and other cities, they already had established colleges earlier.
Second was he wanted to follow a model of Oxford and Cambridge which were small towns. These colleges, legendary universities started in small towns and at that time, Aaliyah was a small town. So he thought, you know, we should build that atmosphere here of students studying in a small place so they are more focused on their studies.
Also, railway track was also built in Aligarh that was connecting Delhi, Agra, North Western provinces. Accessible, it was very accessible. It became very accessible. There was also a lot of land that was available that were confiscated after the 1857 or the abandoned military buildings that
came in use for the university. So there were several reasons. How big was the earlier MAO? So if you look at MAO, you can see today itself. It's like a rectangular set of buildings. So I don't know if you're familiar with the Victoria Gate that used to be called a Sadar Darwaza.
it's a very prominent it's in the cover of my book also so victoria gate here and this building goes around like a like a rectangle or a square on the right behind the victoria gate on the other side of the square is the stretchy hall and then there are other buildings next to it and so that's where it started it took its route there is a sacerd mosque in the corner of that
square or rectangle and so that's where it started and obviously when it became a university and there were other buildings that were built until 1920 when it was established as a university so it started very small and obviously then like I was saying that there were a lot already British built bungalows and other buildings that were housing the faculty
of the students which stood even till date they do house the faculties they live in those areas like Tar Bangla and others within the campus so of course we know that you know AMU story is a huge story at some point of at some point of time it was called the Oxford of the East so it incidentally also changed the demography and the architecture of the city itself
there's a lot of in-migration that happened especially for muslims because of the economy of a university itself how do you think that how long did it shape what was aligarh before amu what did what became of it at the end of the day it's a story of a city how did a university then shape the city ultimately i think
The university campus, now it has grown quite a lot. I think provided that prominence to the civil lines area and kind of overshadowed the old city like we talked about, right? Even our history books and all that, that has taken so much prominence on that part of the city, the civil lines area, that people just kind of ignore the old cities.
The interesting thing about any university like including AMU is that most of the students come just for a few years and then they leave. Faculties stay there longer, etc. But there is always this churn of people coming in and going. It's a very large central university today. And also I just felt like, you know, the literature.
especially has been so much dominated by the AMU and that kind of became an image of a city. And that at least my book is trying to change that perspective. No, there's a lot more to the city. So I think rightfully so, AMU has that prominent role.
in shaping the city however I try to argue a little bit differently I say that if you want a broader context of the Aligarh movement and Aligarh Muslim University you should look at it in a broader picture and when I say broader picture you have to understand how the city was before the Aligarh movement started who were the people who what were the battles
it happened before that when Sir Sayyed Ahmad Khan inherited the town at that time for MAO college. So and also I think most of the history of the city is in the old city because if we just take you know 1875 MAO college all the way to the present 150 years right just from 1875 to
uh 2026 uh but the city of the history of the city is over millennia and most of the things happen in the old city but later on uh especially after the legal fort or sabit girl fort initially was built a lot of things happened in the sabit girl fort like we talked about and then when the
the MAO College and the University was formed a lot more things happened here the way I say see it is that and I share it with friends and others is also is that if you think that a legal movement was the finale of the city and if I show you a movie and I just show you 15 minutes of finale and don't tell you the story before it the plot the people the emotions the fights the you know if all
Everything that was going on, if I just show you that 10 minutes clip or 15 minutes clip of the finale, you won't like it. You won't understand it very well. It won't give you a complete picture. And that's what my quest was to find the complete story of Aligarh. And for me, I had to focus on what happened before it. For me to better, even more appreciate the Aligarh moment is for me to learn what happened before it.
Do you think that because of the complex dynamics of politics of Muslims in India during the anti-colonial movement, so to say the stance of few or abroad people within the Aligarh Muslim University at different points of views related to the Pakistan movement or Indian independence or Indian Muslim alliance with the Indian Hindus.
Do you think that this kind of, first and foremost, what kind of engagements were there? What did Aligarh at that time, especially in its relation to the Aligarh Muslim University and the Aligarh movement, represent as a part of the city, at least? And do you think that because of those positions, there were certain kind of tensions within the city when it comes to...
different kinds of communities that were living there. So how did that movement and its relation to the anti-colonial politics, what was that politics and how did that shape the city for at least till the 1947? Sure. So, yes, I mean, there were a lot of divergence of the views. For example, if you see, there were two groups formed within the
the MAO college and then later Aligarh Muslim University they were called Young Turks and the Loyalists. The Loyalists were those who were in favour of the British government. Why did they call themselves Young Turks? Young Turks I think started with the Caliphate, the Turkish
caliphate because they were fighting against the British and I think that's where the idea came from for them these young Turks are trying to adopt you know what was happening there and show their rebellion against the British government and the colonial rule and then there were these young Turks who were against
the the british government and you know um it included people like hasad mohani who was the first person to uh come up with the slogan in collapse zindabad and also i believe he was one of the first people to ask for in to demand independence from the british raj he was the first yeah yeah and uh complete independence yes which actually uh
Nehru denied at the time and later a few years later he declared it as part of his Nehru plan. Okay, I see and so there were these two groups and again there was this political differences going on. You would see that Muhammad Ali Jinnah visiting the campus because he had a support for Muslim League there but also at the same time Gandhi would be visiting as well and
So this kind of politics was happening during that time before the independence. And there was lots of interesting thing happening during the time of Sajid-i-Abdin Ahmad who played a very pivotal role in the early years of the Aligarh Muslim Universities. Who is he? So he was the principal, vice-chancellor and then chancellor.
and he left to Britain and then he died and then he's now buried next to Sir Syed Ahmed Khan inside the Sir Syed Mosque today. But he was trying to bring more peace because of these political differences which were sometime escalating.
lot more beyond just the political differences trying to bring more peace among these two groups of people and also there was this very interesting thing happening is that when the ideas of partition were shaping place there was this idea especially people in Aligarh some of them and especially not in Aligarh but also Western UP they
They were thinking they would be part of this corridor. We should be connecting Bangladesh and Pakistan Which event which was which turned out to be, you know, just misinformation thousand kilometer corridor Yeah, and a leader would be part of that and some other cities in the Western UP also will part of it and they were saying okay Yeah, let's do the partition etc. Eventually, you know, it turned out to be a disappointment for many of these people So
As you get closer and closer to the independence and then eventually the partition, you will see this lot of things happening in the old city as well. There were people who wanted the partition, there were people who did not. People would paint on their doors. Do you think there was some kind of, say for example, there's Muslim elite, there is
Non-muslim elite there was some kind of distinction for who was demanding You know partition who thought that you know partition would benefit the Muslim and who thought that it would not Was there a I would think so because I feel that in the old city I think these people were a lot more in favor of you know, eventually being part of Pakistan old city old city
this is very nice I just want to I keep forgetting it's called gown versus there's this lady she British lady she I have put her course and I want to make sure I'm very accurate in that she talked about in 1937 or around 1930s yeah so she says Yasmeen Khan author of the great partition the relationship between town and gown so town refers to the the old city
so not not elite people right and then the gown refers to the university more elite educated was stretched to breaking point in march 1946 a riot erupted less than a week after noisy celebrations marked pakistan day and the league's electoral success in the province a few illegal students buying clothes from a local hindu cloth merchant quibbled over the price of a bolt of fabric an altercation broke out a crowd formed
In the arson attack that swiftly followed, at least four people burned to death and the thatched market area of the town was left in ashes. So, I'm just trying to see, like, you know, in the spring of 1994, not just the university campus, but the old city of Aligarh itself, often referred to as Sheher, became a fervent epicenter of the Pakistan movement. So, I think those guys in the old city were more...
in support of the Pakistan. Serving as a volatile microcosm of the polarization sweeping North India. The city was visually marked by the cause Pakistan was dogged on doors and Muslim League banners were strung across. Do you think that it was because there was a strong history of ruling elite which lived across upper court, the people who had ruled historically?
and this new part of the town which is university. It's people coming from all across, seeing different parts of the reality. Do you think that can be a distinctive? I think so. I mean, you know, it's a very interesting question if you look at an even broader perspective of the 1857 because the central point of that was the old city. You know, mainly the Jama Masjid area and all that.
which rebelled and led the rebellion against the British. Yes, exactly. And so they were not friends to the British by a large distance. Anigarh movement was seen as pro-British. These were the educated people, maybe elites.
I think that disparity did happen because of many historical reasons and educational reasons and the social class differences. That's why you will see there was a lot more support for Pakistan in the old city. People dogged Pakistan on their doors with pains and so I think that kind of answers that question, you know, what were the differences in the thought process between the
the gowns which were the students and the faculty and the town, which was the old city. So I think that was a lot more clearer on who was supporting. And again, like I said, even within the campus, they were Young Turks and the Loyalists.
So, it's not like it was very consistent within the campus itself. They were also groups, two thought processes. So, even after the partition and the independence of a new India that was born out of it along with another state which also broke down later in 1972. So, how was Aligarh seen?
just after the independence because there were communal violence millions of people had died hundreds of thousands of them you know and a lot of the people these are people 2.4 million according to some estimates that died but there are millions more that got displaced and so there was a heavy cost
heavy humanitarian cost of this and of course everybody suffered through his Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs alike but one estimate is that out of 2.4 million 1.2 million were Muslims and 0.8 million were Sikhs and only about 0.2 million were Hindus so even after that you know Muslims and Sikhs were the people who had the greatest trauma
of this partition so Aligarh must have been seen as a suspicion to a lot of extent and that is why there is ongoing debate about minority status and things like that and of course you highlight the nuance that like any other place
because we're doing a series on Hindutva and often in independent India what has happened because of the majoritarian historiography the side of the Hindu right demanding these kind of partitions and stuff that's often neglected at a higher resolution the only thing you talk about is no Savarkar also demanded a few years back like Jinnah but then when it is written from the Indian Muslim perspective the resolution is much higher
on the kind of demands or whatever happened. So when it comes to the majority side, because there's nobody who's writing that kind of history, so a lot of things are opaque.
And when I am reading this history, Hindu Mahasabha and Arya Samaj and Akhadas and other local sabhas and how this movement and then RSS. So there's a clear demand for partition from the Hindu right side. As there is and which is also upper caste, upper class, Hindu elite. And similarly from a Muslim elite, there is a demand. But because India got partitioned, it's a majority context.
there's a huge burden that would come to a city and to a campus that had different expressions. Zakir Hussain also came out of it. Other people, Maulana Muhammad Ali Johar came out of it. Hasrat Mohani came out of it. It's equally a campus which produced stalwarts, Muslims and Hindus alike. Of course, broadly speaking, Muslims because that was a Muslim college in the end.
So, how do you see that period? Was there anxiety? How did people deal with that kind of loss? Yeah, very good question actually. So, two things happened. One is, after the partition, a lot of people who were part of the Aligarh Muslim University, they migrated to Pakistan. So, as the university lost some of its
great talent and the skills and To Pakistan so that's a loss by itself to a university that was focused on the Muslim education Then Zakir Hussain played a very pivotal role post partition because all these Political differences between groups Young Turks and loyalists they already had, you know caused lot of
distaste between two thoughts and people who were supporting either of those thoughts he had to bring those people together and which he did I believe successfully to a large extent especially in the early 1950s so he played a very important role of getting that you know unity among different people because now Pakistan is created
you know, let's move on, build our university, expand our university. People that are lost, who migrated to Pakistan, let's bring that talent here and skill set within the university. So he kind of shifted that from that era before the partition to the post partition, post independence era, which I think did a
great favor to the university. Interestingly, Zakir Hussain is also that person who in the 1920s
1919-1921 when Jamia is being conceived is somebody who you know stood against the university's policy which was not a university till then and it was trying to claim the university status and they thought that if they're going to stand in favor of the movement the national movement Gandhi was coming others were coming so these are the people who quit in a way and then he's coming back as a vice chancellor and then trying to make means
of kind of a bridge. So that's extraordinary for a man of his character. So this happened and broadly speaking the bigger debate that continued was about the minority character of the institution. How do you see that debate? Is there some points?
you remember in your research in the way that it was argued despite the fact that the opposition had a certain way in which it conceived the aligarh movement to be yeah so if you look on if you see the or read the initial thoughts of Sasyed Ahmad Khan he already felt that the muslim community back at that time already was behind education
And that's why he was strongly against competitive exams. Competitive exams in terms of the majority and minority giving the exams together. Yeah, he just felt that in general the Muslim community is already behind education. They will not be able to compete because of the social capital. They will not be able to do well and they will not be able to get in and succeed.
So the whole point of having a university is lost. So this continued. I don't think the Muslim community even today is there where it should be in terms of education if you see even today. So I mean my perspective, I don't know if I can give
any broad view on that but I just feel the starting from the Saoirse Dama Khan and decades after decade after that it had some some need for the university to be to keep its minority character
order to better serve the Muslim community given that they continue to be behind education. That's my perspective on this. So because of the continued social deprivation and economic and educational deprivation there was need for at least a few universities or a university that better served the educational requirements of Muslims and which better
than to be the universities who were made for that purpose like Jamia and KMU. Absolutely. So what is the city now? What is it that it is lacking? Did it achieve what it was supposed to achieve or has it halted especially in the last 10, 14, 15 years? If you see JNU,
for example or jamia for example you know there is a certain way in which the universities have been reconfigured and that so to say has changed a prominent part of sociology of the university or the demographics of the university itself so if we see aligarh or aligarh muslim university or largely speaking i think because your work is about aligarh where do we stand as a city right now in terms of this you know a thousand
year of history at least which is documented and a millennia or you know two millennia more in terms of the archaeological evidence of the people who settled here where do you think right now we are and how do you think what does Aligarh need in terms of preservation in terms of vision can it survive as a great city or will it still be dominated by the big cities
Regarding the question, can it survive? I believe it will. In fact, my subtitle of my book says, the city that outlasted empire. So it will continue to outlast it. I think Aligarh has come a long way since I grew up there. I see that happening in the infrastructure and the buildings, etc. But I think Aligarh is not there yet. Even if you compare
say, middle tier city in India. I think Aligarh has a lot to offer, not just the academic part from the Aligarh Muslim University, but, you know, the cottage industry, the locks, the hardware and many other things that I believe Aligarh can contribute quite a lot. I think the people, one thing I always felt as an Aligarian,
is the passion and the emotion of people who are alligators. These may not necessarily be the people who have studied in AMU, or these could be people who have not, but who have lived their lives. A lot of people still in the city who have not studied in AMU, but they were born, they were brought up there. But one thing common among all these people,
the emotion and passion and I have met Aligarians from all over the world even they have studied in AMU for example say for two years they for some reason I don't know they just remember AMU they may have gone to some other colleges after that before that but they are so passionate about the university and I think is the emotion that is very very strong within every Aligarian
to represent the city, the culture of the city. You know, we talk about the matri with omelette and the chai of the city. These kind of things have become a global common discussion point if you meet any Enigarian anywhere in the world. They are just very passionate and emotional people about the city and I have not seen that in any other.
in other folks who are from other cities. The jokes that people talk about they're quite common but they are very funny like somebody managed to get a camel on top of the stretchy hall I believe when Nehru was planning to attend some ceremony and
People were trying to figure out, first of all, how the camel went there and they were trying to figure out how to get it down. So things like that. And there's jokes after jokes, which are very, very common and very funny. But these people keep on saying the same jokes because they just don't want to lose the memory of their time in a legal. And I think at least the so many well-wishers I have gotten after they have read my book and those who have not read my book, but they
wanted a book like that is they really wanted to know about the city beyond the Aligarh Muslim University. I mean, and I visited the old city last weekend and there are many prominent locals there who just came out to me, hugged me that, you know, Atif, you've done a great job because nobody talks about the old city.
Nobody talks about the monuments like Resu Khan's tomb or Sabit Khan's tomb or Sheikh Daud. These were prominent people in the city for centuries. And so my book has broken that convention that the city is not just about the university. It has a lot more to offer beyond the university.
tales of the French families to Ibn Battuta's visit and the interesting experience he had in Coil and as well as Jalali, the Babar's visit and the Dor Rajputs and Maharaja Surajmal and Mahaji Sindhia, one after the other after the other. My book unfortunately was limited by the number of pages, so I had to skim through a lot of things.
you know if I had a plan to write a much thicker book I would have added a lot more stories because there's not a lot more to be told but at least I try to get some of the main major forgotten stories of the city out to the general public and I'm very very lucky that you know I have so many people who are coming out supporting this book and
um so i'm really thankful to all of them i'm sure it has also come in a very meaningful time when forgetting is happening more often than because of the lack of institutional memory lack of history writing so as you already you know highlighted in part of your interview that it just takes a generation or two to forget who you were and if you're not reminded of your past and your present
you cannot really substantially preserve your own identity and in a time like this this fresh approach and different approach to history writing to recover the past in the way that it happened and to give people some you know historical memory and historical affiliation to the space and times they've lived in i think it contributes to a lot
uh especially given that people are you know going through that trauma of erasure of names and places and spaces and of slow and fast deaths of the institutions that they were part of or they lived through so i think it is in this in during this time a book like this helps you know people remember what they had contributed
uh in difficult times in different times and hopefully they can continue contributing in whatever they whatever capacity they live right now in so for writing this wonderful book i think it's my copy and i would like you to uh i would request you to sign it it's already signed it's already signed i mean uh for me also as i told i'm i'll be ending with this
we've spent a significant part of our lives especially in summer vacations at least you know 18-20 years of our summer vacations in that city but that was such a small experience in terms of knowing the city it was just I think a tenth of a part of the city and most definitely he has motivated me to go this time back again and discover what
i had never known and hopefully if somebody helps us at some time in future now would love to do a documentary on this city and more cities that have our past and contribution along with the contribution of other communities
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