Guru Nanak, Punjab & Partition: A Shared Sikh-Muslim History | Shiv Inder Singh

And you know about Guru Nanak, Muslims —even now, Muslims in Pakistan—they say that Nanak is our Pir, while Sikhs and Hindus say he is our Guru. Yes, we never, ever say 'Indian Punjab'; we feel that by saying Indian or Pakistani , we are dividing ourselves. Just Charda Punjab, Latha Punjab. And when 1984 happened, it is said that the RSS had a major role in the violence. These are all facts. I have an article on this in The Caravan. It can be read. But when we talk about Sikhs, we see that they are also a minority. Just as they raise their voice, they too are often labeled as Pakistanis. They are called terrorists. Nikita Saxena is a journalist. She published a report in The Caravan in 2019. She said that the Modi government still uses the term 'Sikh terrorism' in official documents. And somehow, the benefit of the 'Satluj ' movie reaching people, and the anger brewing from it, is going to directly benefit the BJP. Do you believe this? Well, I also feel that if the partition of Pakistan hadn't happened, Muslims would be in much larger numbers. So if Muslims were in larger numbers, you wouldn't have been targeted so easily either. Since Imran Khan inaugurated the Kartarpur Corridor, have things changed? Have things improved? Watching Arnab Goswami, their people's patriotism keeps flaring up, and seeing some of those fanatics, ours do the same. With your help, the BJP is trying to gain Punjab, just as it gained Delhi. If you wanted to get a political science student to research how a party can lose a territory it had won, Punjab's Congress is a perfect example. At 'Now', we bring you stories through data and ground realities that are often suppressed or misrepresented. We are an independent platform. Meaning, we don't have any kind of corporate backing behind us. Our real strength is you. If you want such truthful and essential stories to continue reaching you, please share our videos as much as possible. Subscribe to the channel and, if it is possible for you, support us via the QR code on the screen so we can keep bringing you stories and keep working this way. Greetings, you are watching Now Network. I am Bushra Khanum Fahad. My guests today and the topic I am about to discuss are going to be very interesting for you. Today, we will talk about Punjab. Today, we will talk about Punjab’s politics. Today, we will talk about Punjab’s culture. Today, we will talk about Punjab’s music. Today, we will talk about how the RSS and BJP are seen continuously strengthening their hold in Punjab. We will discuss how much Punjab has changed since you arrived. We will talk about how the BJP is consistently seen campaigning for the upcoming Punjab elections. Expanding its footprint. How much of an impact is being seen in Punjab? Is a Hindu versus Sikh—that is, a Punjabi versus Sikh —divide appearing in Punjab? Are Sikhs also divided into castes? How does Punjab—the Indian Punjab and the Pakistani Punjab—view this shared heritage? We will also discuss Partition and how the pain of that division still lives on in Punjab. Even now, consider the stories we saw when Imran Khan opened the corridor and inaugurated it; the way the Sikh community from Punjab went there gave us goosebumps. We will talk about all of this today. So, today’s conversation is going to be very interesting, and our guest, who has come all the way from Punjab for this podcast, is equally interesting. He is a renowned journalist, not just in Punjab, but in the country. He has been writing consistently for major Indian and international websites. Regarding all the topics I have just mentioned. He has over two decades of experience in journalism. He presents his views very boldly and without mincing any words. So, today we are going to talk to Shivinder Singh. Shivinder. Thank you. Welcome to the show, it is great to have you. Thank you, you said I am very interesting. In Punjab, I am mostly considered to be a boring kind of journalist. Well, let’s break that perception that has been built around you today. And today’s conversation will be—if you can break it. Let’s make today’s conversation interesting and discuss all the serious issues currently facing Punjab. I would like to start with this, Shivinder, that when we look at Punjab from Delhi or other places, a different image of Punjab comes to our minds. Being a Punjabi, you are yourself in Punjab. How do you see Punjab, and do you have a complaint that there is a different kind of perception about Punjab in the whole country? Is Punjab also changing? What has changed in Punjab in these few years? I absolutely have a complaint about how people sitting outside view Punjab, especially those in Delhi or elsewhere, because those in the capital claim they know the whole country, a claim I do not agree with because India is very diverse. Its culture, its heritage, their language. So, roughly you know a few things about Punjab— that there's Bhangra, a bit of 'Chak De Phatte', and such. But this is not all of Punjab; this is also Punjab. But this is not all; there is much more to Punjab. Actually, look, first of all, the British could never understand Punjab. When the British occupied it in 1849, it was a late occupation; after Ranjit Singh, the fighting continued for 10 years among his successors. Uh, when the census took place, I will tell you something interesting about what Punjab is. When the census was held in 1881, the biggest problem for the British was that the census officer, Ibbetson, wrote that he could identify the people's caste. But I cannot figure out their religion. What was happening was that, for example, a person who looked Hindu would record their religion as Sikh, and a Sikh would record it as Hindu, and both would also go to bow at the shrines of Muslim saints, and many Muslims were still following their Hindu traditions. They couldn't understand it because, generally for the British, it was assumed that one practices their own religion fully. This is why when they conducted the census, the survey results would change between the first and second census. Just a few days ago, in a certain area, the count of Hindus was higher. But a few months later, when the survey was done, the number of Hindus there had decreased and Sikhs had become higher. What was the reason? Suppose I was asked what my religion is. I once said that my religion is Hindu. Then they came to ask me again. I said it is Sikh . So I feel that this way of thinking, when I look at it, I feel that Guru Nanak's words, "No Hindu, no Muslim." The Punjabi of that time was absolutely upholding that. When Bulleh Shah says, "Bulla ki jaana main kaun"(Bulla, I know not who I am), I feel that is Punjab, where it forgot its religious identity and was colored in the hues of Punjabiyat. Well, to understand Punjab, Bushra, I think there have been many other intellectual revolutions in Punjab; but the two major intellectual revolutions that have shaped Punjab and given it a beautiful form are Gurbani and Sufism. This is a great heritage that connected human beings with one another. Well, other things continued later, movements came from time to time , but their base remained the same. What was the base? Shared existence, brotherhood, and secularism. Whether it was the later Socialist movement, Bhagat Singh, the Ghadarites, or all of that, this heritage, that legacy remained. That is why you see that the legacy is still visible in Punjab in the form of movements. You see, the beauty of Punjab is that if Article 370 is revoked in Kashmir, Punjab raises its voice, and perhaps you remember that when voices against 370 were raised in North India, they started from Punjab. I had covered that for NewsClick. You see, a protest was organized in Chandigarh. A large number of people were supposed to come. The Punjab government stopped it. When it was stopped, that same spark spread to 45 different places. It blossomed. So, that was huge. Similarly, in the CAA protests, Punjabis participated. You must have seen that. That is why the farmers ' movement was so massive. It was all of that, the entire Punjab was in it. I mean, this is the specialty of Punjab, this shared nature. But right now, Shivinder, what do you think? You are talking about this shared heritage and saying that if something happens in Kashmir, a voice is raised there. We saw the massive farmers' movement in which more than 700 farmers were martyred, and we saw that farmers from Haryana and UP were there. But it could not have progressed without the farmers of Punjab. And even in that, we saw many attempts to create a rift. Attempts were made to pit Jats against Sikhs. But the current Punjab, the Punjab of today, where the BJP and RSS are penetrating on a massive scale or spreading their influence, are making every effort; their goal is to win the '27 election by any means, as Punjab is one state where they haven't succeeded yet. Is Punjab changing? Do you think there is an attempt to convert Sikhs and the people of Punjab to Hinduism? There are two things, Bushra. Take any society; you have to consider the other side of it as well. I have presented one picture, a larger one of Punjab, but things are constantly shaped by struggle—what we call the dialectical process. On one hand, there was this picture, and on the other, when the British arrived, they solidified religious identities to divide Punjabis by mandating that a religion column be filled in the census, even linking it to job prospects. Then, seats were reserved based on religion at that time . Right, what happened after that? So you're saying the seeds of partition were sown back then; let me bring this up to the present with the BJP. If you were a devout Sikh who had taken Amrit, the British made it mandatory for you to join the army back then. Some Sikh scholars have written that the practices they promoted—well, these things went hand in hand, didn't they? Later on, our own rulers after '47 also tried to exploit those same things, the same efforts to divide Punjab. We saw the era of the 70s and the 80s. Yet, after the 90s, Punjab emerged from that because it had endured violence from both sides— state violence and terrorism. After that, Punjab looked a bit beautiful again, but now the BJP’s goal is, well, because the BJP has already captured power across the entire country. In North India, Punjab is the only state that seems to remain beyond their grasp. Although, by forming an alliance with the Akali Dal, they have tasted power before. But they had no real dominance in that power. Now, several tactics have begun for them. What are those tactics? Well, one is to amplify certain voices within Punjab. They look like Sikhs, but they set the BJP’s agenda. Whether it's during the farmers 'protest, you get voices like Deep Sidhu or Amritpal. Suddenly, a guy arrives from Dubai. He arrives from Dubai and takes over. Look, at that same time, there was a journalist named Angad Singh who was supposed to come from the USA to cover stories on the CAA and farmers' protest. He doesn’t even get a visa. But this brother from Dubai gets a visa easily. Then he even contests the elections. And then he even wins. The person who advised him to contest, Rajdeep Singh Khalsa, joined the BJP himself in 2021. I don’t even know when he left. He contests the election on his advice. I mean, Punjab, which looks like a peaceful state right now. Inside, there is a lot of turmoil. It is the kind of turmoil that precedes a storm. In the same way, attempts are made; what is being done in Punjab now? What the BJP is doing is pitting Sikhs against Sikhs . So that the Sikh vote gets divided. They create different sections, like a radical section and a slightly liberal section. Also, they try to create a Hindu vs. Sikh divide; they don’t want to go all the way because the BJP needs Sikh votes too, but just enough to make the Hindus side completely with the BJP. The second thing is that the Dalit population in Punjab is over 32%. Now, Dalits, because I think Punjab has the highest percentage of Dalits in the country. They are trying to make inroads among them as well. How is that happening? By trying to pull them towards their side. But so far, the BJP hasn't been that successful. However, all these conspiracies are underway. They are constantly at it. Sometimes, they face such setbacks. Right now, Punjab is in a very delicate state. But it is still fighting, holding on to its old legacy. Or let’s say, that legacy is currently being tested. But there are some fault lines in Punjab too. For example, I am not saying the legacy is so strong that they will win. Because there have been problems in Punjab. And what are they? You see, in the 80s and 90s, Punjab endured all kinds of violence. Then you see that the 70s era of the Naxalite movement that followed was also full of violence. After going through that, when the 90s arrived, the youth born in the 90s, especially those from around 95-96, that generation has been cut off from its heritage. They only know the very basics about Sufism or Gurbani. That is why, for them, Bhagat Singh is a hero, Bhindranwale is a hero, and someone like Sidhu Moose Wala is also a hero. When things like this happen, you can mold them in any direction. When you are rendered mindless about that heritage—because that was done by the state during that period—it becomes a major challenge. The rest of Punjab's music and other things are not proving to be helpful either. So, that is a big problem. I feel It is very interesting what you are saying here, Shivinder. A question was coming to my mind because I live in Delhi, and in Delhi, we see that Punjabi culture is discussed a lot. Punjabi culture also dominates a lot here. We see its strong connection with Bollywood as well. In weddings, the various rituals we see are also heavily dominated by Punjabi culture. From music to everything else. But my question is, is there a difference between the Punjabi of Delhi, the Punjabi of other parts of the country, and the Punjabi of Punjab itself? There definitely is, because a simple reason is that whichever region we live in, it has an influence on us. The Punjabi of Punjab—you see, the things that the Punjabi of Punjab has...the Punjabi of Delhi is actually disconnected from 'Punjabi-ness'. Most of these Punjabis came from Pakistani Punjab in '47, so they just arrived. Many own their identity as Punjabis, but they neither speak Punjabi at home nor do they consider themselves Punjabi . There is no 'Punjabi-ness' either. Even to the extent that they very quickly became a part of the BJP's communal propaganda. This is a big thing that did not happen in Punjab. Even the Hindu of our Punjab is not that communal. Because, in 2019, 'The Quint' did a story that there are two states in the country where Modi-ji does not have popularity. One, they said, was Tamil Nadu. In Tamil Nadu, 2% liked them. In Punjab, it was 5%. Now, consider that 40%of Hindus live in Punjab. Suppose that even if only 5%of Hindus do it in Punjab, 35%still don't. Meaning, their current vote... You might still feel that the figure isn't that high. The figure is a bit higher. Let's assume it has reached 12 or 18%by now, that is, of the total vote share. I say that because earlier the BJP contested only 22-23 seats; now they aim to contest all of them, so naturally, the vote share will increase . Like this time, currently the BJP contested all seats last time, uh, contested all 13 Lok Sabha seats. Earlier, they used to contest only three. It will increase accordingly. But I'm looking at the ratio, and it still doesn't seem that significant to me. Although they have brought big names from other parties into their party. But the point is that Punjab is different in this regard. Secondly, this generation has also been influenced by Delhi's Hindi culture or those living near them. Punjab has its own identity. They are disconnected from the Punjabi language. The biggest thing is that once you get disconnected from your mother tongue, you get disconnected from everyone. Like you might have read Rasul Gamzatov's "My Dagestan," where he says if you want to curse someone, just say "may you forget your mother tongue." So, I think they have forgotten their mother tongue. This can be called the biggest insult. Okay, okay, interesting. So we have seen that Punjab was mostly considered to have been governed by the Congress for the longest time. Then we saw the BJP forming the government there in alliance with the Akalis. We saw how major faces from Congress moved to the BJP. Although Amarinder Singh didn't gain much there. But the question now is, why did the Aam Aadmi Party succeed there after all ? Hmm. And the second question is, do the people of Punjab feel that their seven Rajya Sabha MPs have, in a way, defected to the BJP? And now it seems that Raghav Chadha is being projected as the face for Punjab. It’s possible they might even make him Education Minister and the BJP could make him their main face in Punjab. My question to you is, politically speaking, do you feel that Congress is seen to be strengthening its position there once again? We are also seeing a lot of internal rift within Punjab. We are seeing preparations as well. I noticed that BJP President Nitin Nabin is also visiting Punjab repeatedly. So, it is obvious that they have high hopes there . Therefore, and to strengthen themselves—so now I come to my main question after the background: is the BJP trying to win Punjab through you, just as it won Delhi? You’ve asked several questions. That’s three or four questions. I will get to that. Let me try to explain this more simply. Punjab has emerged as it is today after going through an entire process. It is a state that is constantly experimenting. Now the situation is that the people of Punjab think one way. The political leaders think another way. These leaders have now become disconnected from the people . There is no such thing left in Punjab now where a leader says that if I join a certain party, I will take all the votes with me. No, having moved past this entire environment, the people of Punjab have learned from the setbacks they faced. Although there are intellectual problems within it as well . Despite that, what Punjab has learned is: what do I need to do? What decision do I need to make? When they brought in the Aam Aadmi Party, they had become disillusioned with both major parties —the Congress and the Akali Dal. They saw how they ruled, and the farmers ' protest also made things a bit easier for the Aam Aadmi Party. How did that happen? You saw it in Delhi during the farmers' protest. I covered it in Punjab as well. In Punjab, too, small protest fronts were formed in various places. Lectures were held there. Intellectuals used to give lectures. Farmer leaders used to speak. Their main theme was that the old, traditional parties have ruined your condition. Get rid of them. So, Kejriwal ji and Bhagwant Mann said, "We are not traditional.""One chance for Kejriwal, one chance for Bhagwant Mann," and that anger of theirs led to the Aam Aadmi Party's victory. Well, then notice that when Punjabis get angry, they take immediate action. So a few months later, there was a by-election in Sangrur; they were angry . In the Sangrur by-election, which was Bhagwant Mann's own seat, the Punjabis defeated the candidate who was standing for that Lok Sabha seat. Because in just four months—meaning the party had won 92 out of 117 seats—they still defeated them. This means the people of Punjab think for themselves; that's the thing. The second thing is the story of different parties; look, the BJP is trying, but Punjab is a state where you can't just stand any face. Now, things don't work with just a face. People want some promises. People want some loyalty. The situation has reached a point where, when a state is one that breaks out and moves forward, it travels ahead. Now, the leaders aren't capable; the leaders in the electoral system are corrupt. What scares me the most is that a vacuum is created. In that vacuum, either the state takes a huge leap forward. To take a huge leap, you need progressive forces or that kind of leadership. If that doesn't exist, the leap can be backward. To fill that vacuum, reactionary forces emerge. Right-wing forces emerge. This is my apprehension. I hope that doesn't happen. That right-wing doesn't just mean the BJP; it could be in some other form. It could be in the form of Amritpal or some other form. The BJP also wants something like that to happen in Punjab . Later, it wouldn't be hard for them to collude with that right-wing. The BJP's effort right now is to create confusion in Punjab. So far, they haven't been successful. As for the question of the Congress, look, the problem with the Congress here is that people want the Congress to return. But the Congress asks, "Why should we return?" The Congress wants that, yes. People—there is a joke, a classic joke about the comrades, let me tell you—the communists have closed-door meetings; they do that a lot. Their dream is a revolution. A closed-door meeting was happening, and someone knocked on the door from outside. The comrade said that five or seven people were holding a meeting inside, and said, "Who are you? Open the door, I am Revolution." They replied, "How did you get here already? We haven't even passed the resolution yet." So, they turned the Revolution away from their doorstep. It is the same with Congress; people want them to take charge, but they just fight among themselves in Punjab. You see, Congress is a party that has far too many leaders. No one has a clear face. The Aam Aadmi Party only has Bhagwant Mann. The Akali Dal has Sukhbir Singh Badal. The BJP has no face. But Congress is full of faces. There is Channi. There is Channi , Bajwa, Partap Singh Bajwa, Raja Warring, Sukhpal Khaira, Pargat Singh. There is Sukhjinder Randhawa. What is the issue? They don't know how to handle so many faces, so they are all fighting to be Chief Minister. But there can only be one Chief Minister, right? So, their fight is still ongoing , like Channi saying he should be chosen. Now they want to bring in Raja Warring. The high command's culture is such that they neither understand the sentiments of the local Congress. Nor do they understand the sentiments of the people of Punjab. Now, there is very little time left for the elections . The elections in Punjab will take place in February or before February. All the other parties are preparing. As you mentioned, the BJP is doing it too. Others are doing it as well. But the Congress members are fighting. Look at the Congress members 'situation ; let me explain this in an even simpler way. If you were to have a political science student research how a party can lose a winning territory. Then Punjab's Congress is a perfect example of that. Okay. Let's talk about Channi. Channi was given the position because he is a Dalit, and Congress took a gamble that there is such a large Dalit population and we should present a Dalit face. It was a good thing that they tried to provide representation. But it was a complete failure, and now Channi is trying to play his cards again. We have again seen that he is showing a bit of a temper. But it seems like Congress is not in the mood this time. They don't want to make Channi the face, but they also don't want to upset him, in case the Dalit voters get offended. How are the Dalits of Punjab different from Dalits elsewhere? That is a very good question. You've done a great favor by asking this question. The reason is that, you see, the high command—whether it's the BJP or Congress—they just don't understand Punjab. They have this mindset, like in other states, where they think if they lure enough people from a certain party, they'll win with their help. The BJP tried it, but they didn't succeed. Or, they think if they bring in someone from a particular caste, they'll win. Bushra, that doesn't work in Punjab. Channi didn't lose because he was a Dalit. There was a movement going on at that time. People were angry, both against the Congress and the Akali Dal; they wanted to bring in a new party. The popularity currently seen within Congress is actually Channi's popularity. And you'd be surprised that it's not just Dalits who support Channi. Jatt leaders support him too. It's not that all Dalits are the same; Punjab's Dalits actually have other problems. It’s not just about the Dalit population; look, Kanshiram was from Punjab and he founded the BSP, but it didn't work out for them in Punjab. He had to go to UP to make it work. Why is that? What is the reason for this? The reason is that Dalits make up 32 to 33%of the population in Punjab. They are divided into 39 sub-castes. The Dalit community is split into 39 castes. There is a great deal of internal conflict among them. I’ll give you a rough example of this internal conflict. For instance , take the leather workers, you call them Jatavs in Hindi; there is so much friction that those with fair skin versus dark skin—there was a community in Jalandhar, say, one group came from Jammu and had fair skin. And the native ones had dark skin, yet they were all Jatavs. For many years, they didn't marry into each other until a political leader, who was first in Congress and then joined the BJP, intervened. He broke that tradition by marrying within his family to bridge the gap. I mean, there are quite a lot of issues among them as well. Another thing is that no Dalit party has ever really fought for the cause of the Dalits. That has mostly been done by the Communists. And even among them, the ones who don't participate in elections. So, for this reason, there is a third factor: the Sikh religion. Even though casteism exists in Sikhism just the same, its central idea—the core philosophy— doesn't believe in caste, and the Sikh Gurus didn't believe in it, so that also has a bit of an influence. So, as for the caste equation, I don’t mean to say that caste doesn't play a role at all. Caste exists too. There are boycotts of Dalits as well. Farmers do it. They do it when they have to pay for the crop. They have to pay for the harvesting. Even regarding caste, let me give you another example. Guru Nanak Sahib was born into the Bedi community. Which is a Khatri clan. At that time, when the British came to Punjab, the custom of killing girls existed. Feticide has been going on in Punjab for a long time. Uh, now there are modern ways. The British banned it —the practice of killing girls right after birth, rather than in the womb. So, the people of the Bedi community went to the British and said, "Look, don't impose this rule on us, don't apply this law to us." They asked, "Why ?" They said, "We are born into the lineage of Guru Nanak.""Hey brother, we can take someone’s daughter, but we can't give a daughter to anyone." I mean, that was the logic they presented to the British. The point is, caste and hierarchy did exist, but despite that, the electoral process doesn't play the same role here as it does in UP or some other states in the country. Okay, interesting, very interesting that in the same country you see it state-wise. How culturally different Dalits, Hindus , or Punjabis are, much like when we talk about Southern India and see how different the Muslims, Hindus, and Christians there are from those in Northern India. So we see that even though Punjab is part of North India, it is so different from the rest of North India. It is different, look, I think our India—even including the Indian subcontinent, like Pakistan—India is very diverse. A lot of them. It is a bouquet of many flowers. The problem is that the BJP wants only one type of flower in it. Only one kind of flower. India is complete only when it contains different kinds of flowers. And they keep spreading their fragrance . Go to Jammu and Kashmir, it will feel completely different to you. In Himachal, there is so much diversity because it was a hilly area. There were no proper means of communication. Haryana has emerged from us. But it is very different from us. So, this is... But tell me this, when we talk about Punjab and we see that Sikhs live in Jammu on a very large scale as well. Punjabis too. Punjabis also live there. Sikhs and Punjabis live there. I have been to Jammu and Kashmir and I have seen it myself that when you actually go to certain areas of Jammu, you wouldn't say it's Jammu, you'd feel like you have absolutely arrived in Punjab. Entire markets and entire areas are just like that. So, my question to you is, when we talk about Article 370 or some of the voices for freedom rising in Kashmir, and Pakistan obviously has its own interest in one way or another, it penetrates there. Similarly, if we talk about Punjab, there is also talk of a separate state, talk of Khalistan, and then there are people living in other countries who keep talking about all that. They keep talking about freedom. There is penetration there as well. From money to other things, everything, and there is no doubt that there might be a political party with an interest that keeps fueling it, which you also mentioned, like the BJP. What difference do you see between the two? How do you see that, you know, the voices that rise in Jammu and Kashmir and those that rise in Punjab, what major differences do you see in them? The big thing is, Bushra, like the Jammu region. In the Jammu region, there are Punjabis , Sikh Punjabis, Hindu Punjabis, and even Muslim Punjabis. There is a Muslim Punjabi friend of ours who has even held high office there, a Punjabi writer, I am forgetting his name right now, he is an elder, Khalid Hussain Sahab, so there are people like that. But it comes down to the same story; like this Punjab is united, when a province or state is united, there are many other kinds of things involved. Now, the administration of Jammu is separate; the system there has become different. They are Punjabi, so yes, in language, they are Punjabi. But the political consciousness or that aspect could not remain the same. Just like because of the partition, the partition happened. Much of Pakistani Punjab is just like us. There is a slight difference in political consciousness because their political issues are different. Ours are different. Similarly, in Jammu, the BJP has specifically colored the Hindus in their own shade. They couldn't succeed in Punjab because the story in Punjab was different. That is why Punjab’s political—we can also call this political consciousness. This political consciousness is of a different kind. It is of a different nature. There is a shared culture. Even the culture has changed. They speak Punjabi, but many other things have entered it. But because Punjab’s political consciousness was different. It emerged differently because a different kind of movement took place. It had a different kind of trajectory. It endured different kinds of hardships. Coming out of those things, the circumstances —just as circumstances shape a person , they also shape a region. This is the difference. Now, about what you said regarding Khalistan, etc. Khalistan is an idea. The idea is alive. It is very small, and governments actually want to keep it alive. Because let me explain it to you in a very simple way. Suppose you have to scare Hindus in such a large country. Sometimes you scare them in the name of Muslims, saying that Muslims have arrived and are having so many children. They will grow so much. But if it were about growing, then since the Mughal era, Muslims would have multiplied to such a massive number by now. Similarly, at times, you also create a scare about Sikhs. Like it happened during Indira Gandhi's time , and during Rajiv Gandhi's time. So even now, you sometimes need it when you don't do work for the people. You don't live up to the people's expectations. Then you raise a scare about a community, a minority. Right now, it is being done about Muslims. But sometimes it is done about Khalistan. To show—keep that voice alive. Keep a few loudmouths who keep saying, "We want Khalistan, we want Khalistan." Then, amplify their voice and show it to Hindus in other parts of India. "Oh brother, these are very dangerous people.""Only we can save your lives from them." Likewise, many of those sitting in Canada and America are also behind this. I am also working on that a bit. Some of it is definitely the agencies. I mean, there are Indians involved, and those from abroad too. For some, it is just their livelihood. If they don't take the name of Khalistan. They won't be able to collect money from Gurdwaras. Their money also comes from using this name. Some have taken asylum there. All that they show, it’s just something to show that they are busy with some work. That’s the thing. I mean to say, this is their own state matter. But they don’t have the strength to influence the public on their own. Now look, let me give you a simple example. There is Pannun, Gurpatwant. He talks so much, creates so much noise. Six years ago, nobody even paid any attention to Gurpatwant Pannun. He would talk about a referendum; even the Khalistanis didn't care for him then. They used to say he wasn't even one of their own; even BBC reports mentioned that Akali Dal Mann and Daljit Bittu had opposed him. Slowly, who promoted him the most? When the Indian government banned him, he suddenly got an opportunity. You create hype around him. Then, whatever statement he gives, the Indian media blows it out of proportion. His interviews are played on Indian media, and they keep doing it. Who made him big, brother? You made him big. Otherwise, he was in America, and nobody even knew him. And later, you see, his statements kept coming. You made him big. You fueled the hype. And his statements always perfectly suited the BJP. For instance, the BJP said that these farmers are actually Khalistanis. The poor farmers kept insisting during the protest that they are not Khalistanis. Pannun would speak up; yes, a statement from Pannun would come. Yes, do this. Go and break this train. Go and set that train on fire. Go and plant a flag there. He would give these statements. And the BJP would say, "Look, these statements have come." Both were complementary to each other. I think you are understanding my point, right? This is the relationship, meaning how the state operates, it's a big example. There are two or three things I would like to talk about next. So, we will talk about our shared heritage, we will talk about Punjab, 1995, meaning the Sutlej, and besides this, I want to talk about how when we look at this, Shivinder, Sikhs are a minority in this country, and Muslims are also a minority in this country. Obviously, there is a big difference in percentage , and Sikhs in Punjab are limited to a few states. Muslims are spread across the entire country, but a kind of dehumanization and vilification of Muslims is happening. Obviously, all the politics that is being done revolves around them. What is being done to them every single day. I don’t want to repeat it here. But when we talk about Sikhs, we see that they are also a minority. As soon as they raise their voice, they are also called Khalistani or Pakistani. They are called terrorists. At different times, we have seen those voices being raised. But still, Sikhs have a political agency. It is done for a certain time. But they are not permanent enemies. It is done at times so that their own interests can be served. So that those voices can be suppressed. The difference you see between these two, even though both are minorities. Both of them, if we look at it, have in a way suffered the pain of partition. The intensity and the methods might be different, but both have suffered. But what major difference do you see in this? Why do you think Muslims don't have that strong of a political agency? Even though they are larger in numbers, but Sikhs do. Even now, Prime Minister Narendra Modi or Amit Shah wouldn't be able to say anything directly to them. Even now, if Amit Shah has to wear a turban, he will wear it. He won't wear a skullcap. The Prime Minister will wear it. Just watch, how he will come in a turban for the Punjab elections now. Yes. So, how do you view this difference? It's very simple. Firstly, there was a time when Sikhs were treated the same way, like during Indira Gandhi's time or Rajiv Gandhi's time. Because look, a communal force or any party with communal elements needs a community, a minority, which I have said before. At that time it was Sikhs in the 80s, now it is Muslims. Also, when we talk about the BJP, another thing is added; the difference between Congress and BJP is that Congress was doing it then because Congress does its communalism according to its greed, I mean according to convenience. But it’s not like they celebrate that thing, I mean they can even apologize later. These people don't apologize. For them, it's like yes, we must do this to the Muslims. We must do this to the Christians. Because just look at their agenda, what is their agenda? Muslims are outsiders, Christians are outsiders. These are our enemies. Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists. They belong to this land. They are our own, they are our own. Well, what about our own? When one of our own asks for their rights. He says, "I am not your brother , I am not yours." I mean, then they say that you are a Khalistani. You are this, you are that. But when our own stays silent, or tries to cooperate, or doesn't express that kind of outrage. So when they do express some outrage, they try to appease them by wearing a turban, saying, "I am just like you," and so on. There is a big difference here because the system for killing Sikhs, or dealing with Sikhs, is that we have to hug them to destroy them. The way Muslims are killed, you are seeing how lynching is happening. This difference that you see is the difference in the ideology of the RSS and BJP regarding how they view Sikhs. They view Sikhs. We have to embrace them and then finish them off. Lynching Muslims, which is...I mean, on the streets, why? Now it’s visible in every one of their idioms. This is a major thing. Well, there is another thing too. There are things in history, like the battles between the Gurus and the Mughals, and efforts are made to pit Sikhs against Muslims. In fact, when you are talking about it, when I went to cover the farmers' protest. The example they used to give there, the very first example, was that of Aurangzeb. Hmm. They would talk about Aurangzeb, saying , "We will not let this become a second Aurangzeb," so even the examples being used are framed that way. So, do you think that the history between Mughals and Sikhs is being intentionally fanned ? Yes, it is being fanned because it is their effort, because look, the past history between Mughals and Sikhs is being portrayed as Sikhs versus Muslims . Although the Sikh Gurus 'fight was not against Muslims; in fact, many Muslims were very good friends. I have full documentation on how the Gurus' relations with the Sikhs were. I can tell you. For instance, look at Guru Nanak Dev Ji; Guru Nanak Dev Ji had a very good friend. Who was he? It was Bhai Mardana, with whom he went on his entire journey (Udasis), and Guru Nanak Dev considered him a great brother; he went on his journeys with Mardana. Who was it that laid the foundation stone of Darbar Sahib? It was laid by Sai Mian Mir. Who was Sai Mian Mir? Well, Sai Mian Mir was a Muslim. And what about Guru Gobind Singh's relationship with Peer Buddhu Shah, or who was it that protected the Gurus? That was him as well. It is a long history. Now the BJP is trying to erase that history somewhere or the other. Look, for instance, I have this document here; what do they say about Guru Nanak Sahib ? Guru Nanak Sahib’s friendship with Mardana, they went on 'Udasis' together , and you know about Guru Nanak—the Muslims of Pakistan still hold him in high regard. They say that Nanak is our Peer, while Sikhs and Hindus say he is our Guru. It is believed, and there is even a proverb, that "Baba Nanak is the Guru of Hindus and Sikhs, and the Peer of Muslims." And look, there is an interesting incident about this. The land at the Nankana Sahib Gurdwara; that land was given to Guru Nanak Dev Ji by his friend, the landlord of Rai-Bhoi-di-Talwandi (which is now Nankana Sahib). He was a Muslim, so even today, the land is recorded in the name of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, it is registered in the name of Nanak Shah Fakir. This is a big thing; even now, when Sikhs go there, the Punjabi Muslims there welcome them. Right, then there is another point of history. Look at Humayun. When Humayun lost his battle against Suri, he went to seek the blessings of Guru Angad Dev Ji. This story is prevalent among Sikhs as well. There is a story about Akbar that he visited Guru Amar Das Ji. He bowed his head, sat in the congregation, ate 'Langar,' and there is also a story that the land of Amritsar was donated by Akbar to the Sikh Gurus, where Amritsar is established. I mentioned Sai Mian Mir earlier, he was a Muslim Sufi Peer, and Guru Ram Das Ji had the foundation stone laid by him, a Muslim Peer. Also, there was Dara Shikoh, a very secular person who had many Hindu texts translated into Persian and other languages. Dara Shikoh had very close relations with the Sikh Gurus. Guru Hargobind Ji had a very good relationship with him. And then look at Ram Rai, who was the Guru’s own son. Although, they did not get along. There are also accounts of the relationship between Ram Rai and Aurangzeb. Peer Buddhu Shah, you know, he was a disciple of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Similarly, there are Ghani Khan and Nabi Khan. What is the story of Ghani Khan and Nabi Khan? Look at who Ghani Khan and Nabi Khan were. They were Muslims. When the Mughal army surrounded Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Machhiwara, Punjab. Ghani Khan and Nabi Khan said, "Do not worry, we will save you." They helped the Guru disguise himself. They dressed him in the attire of a Peer, saying, "You become a Peer." They carried him on their shoulders as a Peer, so when the army asked, "Who is it?" They replied, "He is our Peer.""We are taking our Peer along." The soldiers said, "Fine, you may go."" Please offer our respects to the Peer as well." Who was the Peer? It was Guru Gobind Singh Ji in disguise. Similarly, there is the story of Nihang Khan. The story of Nihang Khan is that he was a very good friend of Guru Gobind Singh. When the Sikh forces were surrounded by the Mughal army and the hill kings, Nihang Khan gave shelter to one of the Guru's disciples, Bachittar Singh, in his home. He was wounded. When the army arrived, he hid Bachittar Singh in his daughter's room. When the army asked, " Brother, we need to conduct a search."" We need to search everywhere." He replied, "Go ahead, if you must search. ""But my daughter and my son-in-law are in that room." This connection, creating this bond, is no small matter. The army responded to this claim by saying, "No, no, if they are your son-in-law...""Let them rest, it is fine." Likewise, in the Raikot region of Ludhiana district, there lived Rai Kalla. Guru Gobind Singh Ji had a very good relationship with Rai Kalla. The Guru gave him a special vessel; it had holes at the bottom, so if you put soil in it, it would fall out. But if you poured liquid like water or milk, it wouldn't leak. It is still with the descendants of Rai Azizullah, who live in Pakistan; they show this vessel abroad every year, and Sikhs come to pay their respects. Similarly, look at how the writings of many Muslims are included in the Sikh scriptures. The words of Kabir and the verses of Farid Sahib are included. We give Farid Sahib the same status as a Guru. I see that the Sufi Kalam is... It is Sufi Kalam. So if you look at Sufi Kalam, it mentions the Prophet and everyone else; it is actually a very integral part of Punjabi music and is cherished there. That brings in the angle of Punjabiyat, but I am just talking about the relationship between Sikhism and Islam because people try to connect Sikhs and Muslims. Ranjit Singh was a Sikh king, but he was a secular ruler. Even his foreign minister was a Muslim. In fact, some of his wives were also Muslim. The mention of Moran Sarkar comes up there. Moran, who was a Muslim woman. Similarly, if you look at the time of Partition, what happened was that many people were killed. Everything happened . Even then, you find such examples. When people saved other people. There was one Gahal Singh Chhajjalwaddi. Gahal Singh Chhajjalwaddi saved Muslims in the Amritsar area when they were being killed. So what happened was that the Sikh extremists said that you are not a Sikh at all. They burned Gahal Singh Chhajjalwaddi alive. Similarly, there were Megh Singh and Suba Singh; they were also killed by Sikh or Hindu extremists. They were also saving Muslims during the time of '47. Also, there is Sai Umruddin; Sai Umruddin was in Pakistan, and he was saving Sikhs and Hindus. He was killed by Muslims. I mean, such shared examples can be found . Then you see, yes, Sai Umruddin of Lyallpur, these are all records that I have brought before you. These are the relations between Sikhism and Muslims. Now, what they are doing is, see, you said in Delhi that we have introduced a syllabus. This syllabus will be a syllabus of Sikh bravery. First of all, it will be a syllabus of the heroism of Sikh history. I have heard of history based on heroism for the first time, as if history ever consists only of heroism. Heroism belongs in stories, right? History consists of facts. It consists of facts. For example, if I am to narrate history, then in history, brother, you have a villain. And you have a hero. The hero is supposed to triumph over the villain. But the things I am telling you, that despite the opposition with the Mughals, there were good relations with Dara Shikoh. And Aurangzeb, who committed such atrocities against the Guru's children, yet the Guru was still writing the Zafarnama to him. In the Zafarnama, he writes to Aurangzeb that your Islam says this, yet you haven't lived up to a single tenet of Islam. Islam teaches that one should not harm innocent children. You committed such atrocities , and Aurangzeb was shaken after reading it. Aurangzeb developed a desire to meet Guru Gobind Singh. The Nawab of Malerkotla, when the Governor of Sirhind was about to martyr the Guru's young children, said, "No, you cannot do this." This is against Islam. Even today, Sikhs respect the Nawab of Malerkotla. Malerkotla is an area where a large number of Muslims reside. They pay their respects to Malerkotla. Malerkotla is a very good place for Sikhs. Yes. So that's what I was looking at, and then you spoke about the partition and everything. I will mention that. But coming to the present, we also saw that Sikhs supported Shaheen Bagh on a large scale. We saw entire groups coming here to sit, and they were also offering their services here. They were setting up Langars, providing services, and I remember one man who said he had even sold his house and everything, and after that, he set up Langars here. And I saw that women also came here in large numbers to sit, so there was an attempt to categorize them all as being Pakistani and Khalistani. Look at them going there to support them. We saw that when the farmers 'protest was happening here, Muslims also Muslims came; even when there were floods in Punjab last year, Muslims came. Muslims, yes, when the floods came, I remember an Imam, I don't recall the area, but he was from a mosque who opened his mosque. Opened the mosque; even now, this is happening in Punjab, where many Sikhs in their villages are doing this for the Muslims who left long ago. They are building mosques for them or refreshing those old memories. Because when you ask about the partition or the two Punjabs, I will share more incidents connected to that. Let me share one incident with you right now. I did a story for The Caravan on both Punjabs. There is a village near Ludhiana district. There is an elderly man there who had built a very beautiful house. It was a Kothi ( mansion). We call a bungalow a Kothi. It was a Kothi. But right in front, there was this very old, broken-down, old-style seating area kept there. I asked, "Uncle, why is the seating area kept just like that?""You have built such a beautiful house." He said, "Son, I have come from over there.""I have come after being uprooted.""To this day , I yearn to see my old home.""The one that was left behind in Pakistan.""This house here, it also belonged to a Muslim who went there.""I want that when they come, or their children come, they at least have one keepsake left."" That is why he had kept it like that." So, I mentioned that in the story. Right, and there is another example of the same person. There is a Gurdwara built in that same village. Inside that very Gurdwara, there is a mosque. I mean, it just ended up inside it. It was an old mosque from before '47. That elderly man takes care of the Gurdwara too. He takes care of the mosque as well. He said, "Son, last year my nephew sent 8 lakh rupees.""I spent 4 lakhs on the mosque.""And 4 lakhs on the Gurdwara." I asked, "Well, Uncle, why is that?" He said, "Man, they are houses of the same God, right? These things in Punjab keep you connected and give you a sense of shared heritage." You have said something very important. It is very emotional to think about how , when the Partition happened, hatred must have obviously been born in everyone's hearts. The scale of the massacre on both sides, we have seen it ; and since we are currently talking only about Punjab, we will concentrate on that. Although, when the Partition happened, what did we see across the entire country, especially in Northern India, on such a massive scale? That is also my question to you—does this talk of "shared heritage," and I am talking only about India right now... Then I will come to the Punjab of Pakistan and India. ...does it bother the BJP that wherever we look, whenever something happens, we see that Sikhs and Muslims come together? And now I am seeing attempts being made to turn Sikhs into Hindus as well. Attempts are being made to pit Jats against Sikhs. Attempts are being made to pit Hindus against Sikhs, and to make it non-Hindu there. Is the BJP managing to succeed in this? Because we see this, I was just watching a recent incident where Nihangs were on their way to Haridwar. Yes. And there, they had a collision with someone's motorcycle, and we saw a large-scale, somewhat aggressive demonstration there. In that too, an attempt was made to create a' Hindu versus Sikh 'narrative, saying, "Look how violent they are, they pick up weapons." Furthermore, regarding the Nihangs, it is also said that they carry the weapons they are permitted to carry. How do you view all of these things currently? I think, you see, this happens, but it is precisely these things, like the example you gave, where the BJP gets exposed. On one hand, you try to show sympathy toward Sikhs, claiming that you are their well-wishers. God knows what all you claim to be. On the other hand, you get exposed because you have a whole history filled with anti-Sikh sentiment. These are the facts. You are saying anti-Sikh; what is the RSS and BJP's stance? And I will add a question to this because it's on my mind: when we talk about 1984, then obviously the Congress has apologized for it. We have seen that, and apart from that, as a form of atonement, we saw that Manmohan Singh was not just once, but twice......they even made him the Prime Minister. Now, I don't think any other party would be able to do this—to make a Sikh, a person from a minority community, the Prime Minister; let alone a Muslim. And when this 1984 event happened, it is said that the RSS had a major role in inciting the violence. There are many facts. I have an article on this in The Caravan. It can be read. I have taken these facts from there. It is my article. I have collected them myself. First of all, when the Punjabi Suba movement was going on in Punjab. Which was a secular one, demanding a state based on language, the Jana Sangh at that time, to incite Hindus, launched the' Maha Punjab 'movement to create a rift between Hindus and Sikhs, and Hindus were told that their mother tongue is not Punjabi, but they should register it as Hindi, so... Which era are you talking about? This is the 60s era, the 60s and 70s. In Amritsar, near Darbar Sahib, they demanded—they actually protested— that shops for bidis and tobacco products should be opened near the Gurudwara. I mean, Darbar Sahib is a sacred place. They were demanding, sir, that beedi, tobacco, and gutkha be permitted there. This was done by the RSS. It was done by organizations affiliated with the RSS. Like the Bajrang Dal type , or the Shiv Sena type. There was a small Shiv Sena in Punjab as well. It stays active for these kinds of notorious activities. That was their demand. Well, a model of Darbar Sahib had been built near the railway station . Harivansh Lal Khanna was a person from the BJP. He was a member of the state committee. Not just a person, he held a high position. He had broken that model. Later, terrorists, those Khalistanis, killed him. Well, when the military attacked Darbar Sahib, pressure was also applied by Sangh and BJP leaders. They put pressure on it. A few days before Operation Blue Star, L.K. Advani and Atal Bihari Vajpayee sat on a protest regarding this. Indira Gandhi was pressured to attack Darbar Sahib to remove Bhindranwale. L.K. Advani has mentioned this in his autobiography,' My Country My Life '. Advani writes in his book,' My Country My Life ', and even admits that when the military attack happened, because Bhindranwale was running a parallel government...This is a huge achievement of my politics that I, we, protested and told you to send your army there. I mean, this is a fact. So, after this action took place, sweets were also distributed by people associated with the RSS. These are reports from the newspapers of that time. Nanaji Deshmukh, whom they awarded the Bharat Ratna. He has an article of his,' Moment of Soul Searching '. In it, he is praising Indira Gandhi for the military action at Darbar Sahib. He is justifying it. Look at their links; they are justifying the '84 massacre by saying it was the incompetence of Sikh leaders . That the massacre that happened was right. Alright, let's move forward. Arun Shourie, who had been with the BJP . He had his own article,' Lessons from the Punjab '. He justifies this action at Darbar Sahib; his article is included in the book titled' The Punjab Story '. Similarly, many BJP leaders were in the cabinet during Rajiv Gandhi's government. M.S. Ahluwalia and others are big examples. When the massacre happened in '84, many Sangh leaders and many BJP leaders were involved in it. Take the Delhi city police stations, for instance. There are 14 FIRs registered in this. Which includes the names of 49 BJP and Sangh members. The names of 49 people are included in this. The Srinivas Puri police station in South Delhi has the highest number of cases. Along with this, the names of very senior Sangh leaders are involved in Harinagar, Ashram, Bhagwan Nagar, and Sunlight Colony. Those who committed arson, looting, and murder. Well, one of the names among these individuals is also Ramkumar Jain. Ramkumar Jain was the one who served as Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s election agent in the 1980 Lok Sabha elections. Similarly, Kapil Sibal once challenged the BJP. Yes, you are saying that when Manmohan Singh apologized and a debate took place in Parliament, Kapil Sibal stood up and asked, "Should I tell you who from the BJP were among those who killed?" And no one had an answer. Perhaps those things might still be in the records. Similarly, in 1991, during the BJP's Kalyan Singh government, 10 Sikh pilgrims were murdered in Pilibhit, Uttar Pradesh. They were labeled as terrorists, but later it was found they were just ordinary Sikhs. The Modi government's stance on Sikhs was that they kept trying to snatch land from farmers in Gujarat. The attempt to seize land from Kutch farmers continued even after they reached the court and won; they were harassed and even attacked. Varun Gandhi and Anil Vij have also periodically insulted Sikhs. Varun Gandhi even had a famous slur. Similarly, Narendra Modi, who claims to be a great well-wisher of Sikhs. Once he called Manmohan Singh a' Shikhandi ' .' Shikhandi 'implies an eunuch. Once he even made the "12 o'clock" comment about them. Many people must have forgotten. Let me remind you. The story goes that Modi went to meet Manmohan Singh when he was the Chief Minister of Gujarat. Modi said that he found Manmohan Singh to be a very soft person . He was talking to me so affectionately. I am from the opposition. Why is he being so affectionate? When I looked at the clock, it was 12 o'clock. You know that the "12 o'clock" comment is directed at Sikhs in a derogatory manner. Similarly , look at Nikita Saxena, a journalist. She published a report in The Caravan in 2019. She stated that the Modi government still uses the term' Sikh terrorism 'in official documents. They have a problem with terms like' Hindu terrorism 'or' Hindutva '. But' Sikh terrorism 'is still used in official documents in the same way. These are just a few. There are many more. We have very big ones. I have given you this as an example. We find this very interesting. And look , you will see now that since the elections are coming up, there will be a full attempt to appear as a Sikh well-wisher and all that, and I don't even think Ravneet Singh Bittu will remain a minister now. And he has been assigned that exact duty, hasn't he? These days he is inciting Hindus, saying what are you doing about the film' Satluj ', and this and that. So, the things I have said, this history of theirs, which is anti-Sikh—the record is entirely there, it has been published in Caravan , in NewsClick, it is all there. Yes, absolutely, let's come to Satluj because that is what is being discussed , and I will talk about what the BJP is trying to do through Satluj, because look, on one hand, it is being shown, if you look, how smartly this is being played. That first it wasn't allowed to be released, then it went to the censor board, then how many cuts were made to it. Then its name was changed. Then it was released on Zee5 and then removed from there within 24 hours too. Now when such things happen, obviously, people's curiosity grows about what is in it. People downloaded it; it is probably present on every mobile phone more than ever before right now, and then we saw how a protest was staged regarding it, saying look, the voice is being suppressed. Everything is being done. But the other side of this, Shivinder, which I was hearing from some experts. They say that by running this kind of negative campaign, the BJP is creating a positive atmosphere for itself, and this way or that, the benefit of the' Satluj 'movie reaching people and the anger brewing will directly benefit the BJP. Do you believe that? And the things that are said about Khalra, he called those who killed Indira Gandhi, in a way, heroes. How do you view all these things, including his own viewpoints regarding Bhindranwale and Khalistan? And if we link this to the context of the current elections, do you think everything is being done to benefit the BJP or to gain a different kind of popularity? I believe that, and I largely agree with that view because, first of all, I have watched that film. I don't know if you've seen it or not? No, I haven't watched it yet. I have seen it, though it was only for a short while before they banned it two days later. See, first of all, Bhusha, I don't understand why it was stuck with the Censor Board for four years and subjected to 127 cuts. I watched the film, and I didn't understand why those 127 cuts were made. There was nothing in it that deserved those cuts. I mean, there was nothing at all; in fact, I feel it doesn't even question the system or the state. The main core idea , the conclusion it draws, is that five or six police officers are responsible for all these problems. I mean, they blamed everything on the police and acquitted the state. In your view, it shows the CBI is doing a great job. The judicial system is working well. This was going to be the biggest propaganda piece, man. Why did you stop it? Also, when you suddenly allowed it to be released, where was it released? On a Zee platform. Now, whose is Zee, brother? I don't need to tell you. It was released on Zee5. Then, after running it for two days, they pulled it down again. There is no official information . Zee is writing that we agree with this story. When you open it on Zee5, it says we also agree with these kinds of stories. But we are removing it due to an order from above. Why were those orders given? The reason for that was never discovered. Then what did you do? You stopped it after two days, and then a committee was formed. The committee said it was a threat to the sovereignty of India and so on. But look, by then, the film had already reached everyone's WhatsApp. If you hadn't stopped it and let it run normally, it would have failed in a week or ten days because many such films have already been made. In a week or ten days, people would have watched it and all the anger would have subsided. But by stopping it, what happened was that it started circulating on WhatsApp. Now, many people started showing it in villages themselves. It started being shown in Gurdwaras. Politics started revolving around it. There is the Amritpal faction, which is a radical group. To improve their own image, the Akali Dal's Sukhbir Badal said that they too would screen it in gurdwaras. However, Khalra's family says that the Akali Dal never even listened to us or took any interest in us. Meaning, they have also come to play politics on it now. Well, in the same way, the BJP has adopted two types of politics. The president is saying no, we are in favor of letting the film play because this is from the Congress era. But Ravneet Bittu is inciting Hindus. That is because his grandfather was Beant Singh. He considers Beant Singh's legacy to be his own. He is inciting Hindus. Brother , you should protest. Why don't you protest this, then? So, this is the politics that is going on. What do I feel is the main reason for this? It is what you said: playing with the sentiments of Sikhs. Then, once they are toyed with, they might join groups like Amritpal's or their emotions might be exploited. On the other hand, provoke the sentiments of Hindus. Provoke them and then cash in on their votes. But the BJP is stuck, because Hindus haven't really sided with them yet, from what I see on the ground. Are you not underestimating the BJP? No, I am not. I am looking at the ground because, see, the BJP's goal with polarization is to win over the Hindus. That didn't happen through this film, because otherwise a huge movement would have started with Hindus uniting. On the other hand, there is definitely interest among Sikhs to watch the film; perhaps that is the game they want to play. How long will they keep watching? We don't know, because political parties are screening it on big screens . This whole thing of screening it first and then banning it... It is politically motivated because there is nothing like that in the film, Bushra, I have seen the film. Is sympathy for Khalra being generated among people? Given the way the film has been made? It was there before, it was there already. So how do you see him? Do you see him as a human rights activist, or how is he viewed in Punjab? In Punjab, look, when he died, not many people knew Khalra at the time. Some sections knew, human rights organizations knew, some Sikh organizations knew, but he was not widely known. Slowly, a few books about him started appearing, and so on, but even then, people had started to know him. At that time, he only had the image of a human rights activist. Up until now, as far as I am concerned, my perception was the same. Later, I read about him. Then, two books came out about him. One tried to portray him as a Khalistani. The other as a liberal Sikh and a human rights activist. But when we look at his journey, it was such that he was born into a patriotic family. His grandfather had been part of the Ghadar Party. He also served time in jail, and as for him, in his youth, he was a leftist. He was associated with the ML ideology. He was also a member of the Naujawan Sabha. Then he became a bank manager. From there, he slowly moved towards Sikhism. Then he started talking a bit about human rights. He joined the Akali Dal. Then, what did he do along with that? At first, he used to oppose the bloodshed caused by Khalistanis in Punjab. But slowly, he became completely associated with the Khalistani ideology . Then he started remaining silent about the killings done by Khalistanis or began justifying them. He also lived in England for some time. Around '91- '92, he used to publish a paper on the liberation of Khalistan. He has an article in it that is still available. It is available in English. Baj News has posted it. In it, he mentions Kehar Singh and Satwant Singh, who assassinated Indira Gandhi. He describes them as greater martyrs than Bhagat Singh and Kartar Singh Sarabha. Similarly, regarding his visit to Canada, the organization that invited him, as shown in the film, also largely subscribed to the Khalistani mindset, and in an interview, he said about Bhindranwale that, "Bhindranwale's martyrdom has shown us the path to re-examine our relationship with the Indian state." Now, as for your question, Shivender, how do you see him ? As a Khalistani or a human rights activist? Look, his work was about the fact that during that era, people were killed in illegal police custody and disposed of, and their bodies were never even recovered. He tried to find those bodies. His estimate was at least 25,000—though that 25 figure is incorrect. He had discovered 297 bodies . And there are others who worked, maybe 6 or 7,000, or even if you count them differently, maybe 12,000, but certainly not 25,000. One must acknowledge their work and accept that yes, they tried to find those bodies, even if they were only... Not killed by Khalistanis, they were policemen; they tried to expose or bring the state's violence to light and became victims of it themselves. The police then kept them in extrajudicial custody just like that and killed them. But when we talk about human rights activists, look, I could be wrong. You can correct me. The first condition of human rights is that, regardless of your ideology...Right? Even if you take the stance that I only have to expose state violence. And not the Khalistanis ', that is also valid. But if you justify the violence of Khalistanis, then it doesn't fall into the category of human rights. The first condition of human rights is that whether you are right-wing, left-wing, or centrist, you cannot justify individual murders. You say why do we demand that there shouldn't be a death penalty for individual murders? Even for anyone, we often say that there shouldn't be a death penalty even for a terrorist. Why do we say that? We say it because we are looking at it from a human rights perspective. We say that on one hand, they were killed. They did the right thing. We justify a murder. So, I at least do not place those who justify murder in the category of human rights. Yes, they found out about the people who were victims of police violence. So we should either call them Sikh activists, or Khalistani Sikh activists. Some term like that can be used. The term "human rights" is a bit broader, because yes, if they were just Khalistanis and didn't say the murders committed by them were right, then we could still include them because you can have any ideology. But if you are justifying individual murders, then I have a problem with that. It is possible that after this comment of mine, I might face a lot of abuse. Yes. Yes. When we are talking about this Satluj issue. Then I will come to the Pakistan one. When we talk about Satluj , we look at what kind of violence took place in Punjab at different times. It has happened on a large scale. Most people talk about Blue Star. People talk about the Khalistan movement that took place. They talk about 1984. But do you think—I wouldn't say it's bigger than that. But violence and voices of this nature, or revolving around similar issues, have continued to rise there. How do you view that history of Punjab? Look, the biggest tragedy of Punjab so far, I consider to be '47. Partition. Because there, a figure of 10 to 15 lakh—it is estimated that 10 lakh Punjabis were killed. On both sides, one figure was that 15 lakh were killed on both sides. Yes, both Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs— all included, they were Punjabis. I mean, consider it 15 lakh Punjabis. Earlier, they used to say 10 lakh, but according to new research by Pakistani Punjabis and some new articles, the count is 15 lakh. So let's clarify here: when you talk about 15 lakh, you are talking about those who went here and those who went there, and you are talking about believers of every religion. I am talking about Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians—any religion, but they were Punjabi. Punjabi, yes. I am not talking about UP, I have currently...No, I am only focusing on the Punjabi aspect. Punjabis on both sides, and 1 crore Punjabis had to leave their homes, 1 crore Punjabis on both sides. Regardless of their religion, I see. Similarly, lakhs of women were raped. The figures vary; it is not right—I wouldn't even sound right saying how many women—but the count was in the lakhs. This is a much bigger trauma, it is huge; I don't think anything is bigger than this. Because, I mean, you had to leave your home; there are so many stories, they are filled with them . This feels like a great pain to me, I don't think there could be a greater pain than this, that those who lived together until yesterday, who called each other uncle or something else, became monsters overnight. Shouting sacred slogans of their own religion, some saying 'Allahu Akbar', some saying 'Jai Shri Ram', some saying 'Bole So Nihal', and they raped the very women they called their daughters. They called them their sisters. I mean, this cruelty feels like a huge stain on Punjabiyat. I mean, we Punjabis could stoop this low. I consider this a much bigger event, I'm asking. I mean, the minor details that followed are also painful aspects. But this is huge, because even now, look, it's the fourth or fifth generation for someone like me ; I haven't escaped that trauma either. Although no one in my family was uprooted from there, I feel this is our irreparable loss. In fact, it has caused a loss to Punjabiyat as well; look at our population. There are 140 million Punjabis in Pakistani Punjab, while we have 30 million in our Punjab, then adding Haryana and those counts. Punjab would have been a major state, next to Bengal , after UP. And I also feel that if the partition of Pakistan hadn't happened, Muslims would be in a large number, and if they were in a large number, you couldn't be targeted so easily. Then BJP's polarizing politics wouldn't exist either, because when you are equal in numbers, that doesn't happen. Also, we Punjabis didn't ask for Pakistan. You see, the Muslim League only succeeded right at the end. They weren't successful before because there was the Unionist Party in Punjab; initially, our Chief Ministers were Sikandar Hayat Khan and Khizr Hayat Tiwana. They were Muslims; they were the Chief Ministers of us Punjabis. Their only problem was that they kept taking small concessions from the British. Later on, they made the demand . They also made a demand; Rajmohan Gandhi has a historical book, "Punjab." He said that the Unionist Party asked, "If you are creating India and Pakistan anyway, create a separate Punjab for us too, which includes all of Punjab," but by then, that demand was also too late. The second thing is that they didn't even struggle for it. But anyway, I didn't want Punjab to be separated either. In fact, I wanted to keep it whole because my horizon is vast. I want to keep the whole world united. But this was a major event; our culture was torn apart. Beautiful Lahore was snatched from us, and after losing Lahore, we became uncivilized. I mean, I don't think there is any tragedy greater than this. You have said something very important, and I feel there are many more facts connected to this that could lead to a long conversation. You cannot summarize this in just two or three questions. But I still have this question. Let’s then come to the shared heritage of both your Punjabs. You live in the Indian Punjab, and you have visited the Pakistani Punjab and other parts of the country as well. You must have many great stories of your own about it. Tell me, we watch a lot of films. We see how the pain of that region, even the way Imtiaz Ali made a film, is depicted. We still see that people are living with that pain. Those generations are still living it. When it is shown on screen, they become even more emotional. How do you view this shared heritage? When we look at the Punjab that is in Pakistan. Especially since Pakistani serials have become very popular here. I myself had an aunt who lived there. So, we see that there isn't much difference visible. They wear the same kind of clothes. Their language is the same. In fact, from Moosewala to all the other singers here, even Diljit, is actually more famous in the Pakistani Punjab than he is in the Indian Punjab. Look, our connection, Bushra, is a cultural connection. Our shared culture . The entire heritage is one. Now, as you said, let me give you a small example. I will give an example from my personal life. I have visited Pakistan twice. I went once in 2024 for the World Punjabi Conference as a Punjabi writer. I went once in 2025 for the Faiz Festival. At that time, I went as a journalist. My topic back then was how peace can be achieved in the South Asian region through journalism. I was among the speakers, alongside journalists like Munizae Jahangir, Beena Sarwar, and Zahid Hussain. First of all, my own experience, it's quite an interesting anecdote. I was very young, I think I was in the sixth or seventh grade. I was tuning the radio, and we could easily catch Radio Pakistan because it's a border area in Punjab; so, while scanning, I tuned into Radio Lahore. When I hit Radio Lahore, a man was speaking in Punjabi, saying, "Listen to the news from so and so." So I asked my uncle, "Uncle, how is a person in Pakistan speaking Punjabi?" And he gave a very stupid answer. He said, "Son, some of our Sikhs were left behind there.""It must be one of them." So I asked my father, and he gave the same reply. I said, "Man, what is this? ""So all the Sikhs who were left behind are working at Radio Lahore?" So then I asked my uncle, who was a very prominent Punjabi writer. He explained to me, "Son, look at this map, this is how big Punjab is.""Your Punjab is very small, son.""The bigger Punjab stayed there, their population is larger than ours, and yes, Punjabi doesn't mean Sikh." Punjabi is a community. Hindu, Muslim, and Sikh are religions. Our community is one. So Bushra, I became so attached to it. I was in the sixth or seventh grade. By the sixth or seventh grade, I started listening to Lahore Radio. I started skipping school . I memorized the programs, like at 4:45 AM, they have prayers. At 8:30 AM, there's the news. At 4:45 AM, there's the Mudassar Sharif program. Then I started writing letters. They started reading my letters. Then I'll tell you an interesting incident, let's not make it too long. There was a phone-in program there. When I was young, a lady named Imrana Khan used to host that program. Her voice was very beautiful. I tried to write her a letter. I wrote a letter and she read it. Then I tried to talk to her on the phone. Whenever I called Lahore, because one, it cost a lot of money. It cost two rupees per minute. Well, after that, when I tried to call, there was some guy on the other end saying, "Brother, you can't talk.""You can't talk to her." One day, I called again. I was completely stubborn. The guy was sitting there very angry. He said, "Don't waste your time.""She is 50 years old." At that time, I must have been 15 or 16 years old. So my heart broke, man. I said, " Oh, well, she's old." So later, what happened was when I went to Lahore in '24, a girl came to interview me. I said, "There used to be an Imrana Khan on Radio Lahore, can you tell me about her?" Because I had searched before. When I grew up a bit, I made friends who were writers, they said, "We don't know, we've looked everywhere, your sweetheart wasn't found." So when that girl came, she said, "Sir, I promise you, you're talking about a very old matter, she might be living a normal life now, but we will find her." Then one day, that girl sent me a number written as Imrana Khan. At first, I was suspicious, like, "Why are you sending me Imran Khan's number?" Then I found out, when I talked to Imrana, I got very emotional. I said, "Imrana, I was such a huge fan of yours." He said, "Shivendra, that guy lied to you.""I only just turned 50 now." So, when I went there in '25, I went to meet Imrana. When I went there, I had the experience that no shopkeeper would take my money. Whenever I explained, " Look, we don't use terms like Indian Punjab or Pakistani Punjab." We call Indian Punjab "Charda Punjab." Meaning, the one in the east; the sun rises in the east, hence Charda Punjab. East Punjab. We call Pakistani Punjab "Launda Punjab ." Meaning, the sun sets in the west, hence West Punjab. So we use the words Charda and Launda Punjab. Even our Punjabi newspapers use these terms. Charda Punjab, Launda Punjab; and no, we never say Indian or Pakistani, because we feel like by saying that, we are dividing ourselves. Just Charda Punjab and Launda Punjab, that’s what we use. It is still alive. Exactly. Yes, it is still used in newspapers. " They have come from Charda Punjab."" They have come from Launda Punjab." They would also say it like that, " You’ve come from Charda Punjab?" So, two or three incidents were truly amazing. I went with a writer friend from Pakistani Punjab, from Launda Punjab. We had a light meal at a shop, and he asked, "Brother, how much do I owe you?" He said, "It’s 680." My friend gave him a 1000 note. He said, " Give me the change, brother." He replied, "Friend, I don't have change." "You'll have to give some more." My friend said, "Look, he has come from Charda Punjab.""Are you even insisting with them?""Really?" I said, "Yes, absolutely.""How do I believe you?" I said, "Check my passport." Then he said , "Okay, where are you from?" I said, " From Ludhiana, my background is from Ludhiana." I don't know what happened to Bashra, he said, "I won't take money , come over to my counter." He said, " My grandmother also came from there, she was uprooted." Then he started sharing his grandmother's struggle, how they first went to Lyallpur, then him, then started living in Lahore. I mean, his whole story...it took an hour or so , and he didn't even take the money. He even treated me to milkshakes and stuff there. He felt as if he had met someone he knew. He poured out all his grief. That's why whenever I go to a shop, I never pay anything. I felt a sense of belonging when I went there. They have a lot of love for us. We, we also feel like we don't go anywhere. I mean, the way I am explaining it in Punjabi. That is our feeling as well. I remember when there were elections in 2022, a journalist came from Delhi. He asked me to show him around the border area a bit. I said okay, I will show you. He asked about the village right next to the border with Pakistan, don't you feel scared there? He said, the journalist, the so-called national journalist from Delhi, said, "Why would we be scared? They are our brothers." He told me that he is calling them brothers. I said, "Oh, so he is calling the people in Pakistan his brothers?" I said, "Yes, absolutely." I said, "You won't understand this.""To feel this, you have to be a Punjabi." So that is our relationship, Bushra. Yes, very beautiful, very beautiful, but I keep coming back to the same point. But do you see anything changing in these 12 years? Because look, now Pakistan is an enemy country. It is not just a neighbor. It is an enemy country . And we saw that after Pahalgam, things obviously changed even more, and whenever elections approach, we see Operation Sindoor and other things happening here. But do you feel that in these 12 years, you are seeing any kind of difference in Punjab as well? Is the daily hatred shown on TV channels and all that having any effect? Well, if that's not the case, then it's a very good thing, but You said that we share a common heritage, and we also share common pain; so how much restlessness do you see in the Punjab where people haven't been able to meet their loved ones for many years ? Do marriages still take place between the two sides? And after Imran Khan inaugurated the Kartarpur Corridor, have things improved at all? Have things gotten better, or now that the government has changed and Imran Khan is in jail, have things reverted to how they were before? First of all, you mentioned Pahalgam and asked if it had any impact. In Punjab, it’s just like news on All India Radio or Doordarshan. For us, it's just news and nothing else. We don't even consider them on the ground. And secondly, whenever there has been tension, if you noticed closely, Punjab was the only state that raised its voice saying we don't want war, we don't want conflict. If there is damage , it will be the Punjabis who suffer. Whether the Punjabis are from that side or this side. Even this recent event in Pahalgam, it happened this time. At the time of Pahalgam, just do a Google search. You will find reports that a massive peace protest took place in Punjab. When the whole obsession was at its peak to teach Pakistan a lesson, to do this and that. We in Punjab, the farmers, common people, and students all joined together in a big peace protest. A very big one in Punjab, not just in one place, but it happened in many places in Punjab that we don't want war. Seeing that, peace protests then took place in Lahore, Karachi, and Islamabad in Pakistan. My friends in Pakistan also participated in the Lahore one. Faiz Sahab's eldest daughter Salima, whom I...she is like a mother to me. Along with her, my Deep Saida, I call Deep Saida "Bebe". She is a peace activist there. Those people also participated in it. So, this is the story of Punjab. But in today's India, if you look at it , they would be labeled as traitors, as terrorists, just because an attack happened. Our people were martyred, our people were killed. That is true. Pakistan has been doing it. Their own ministers have admitted that they have been doing it. But firstly, we haven't been able to provide proof of this. Secondly, what did we actually do? Both countries have made mistakes. First of all, you stopped people's visas. Brother, terrorists don't come by getting a visa . We know how they come. Both governments have tried to ensure that the bond between the people is severed. Alright, what else did you do? You blocked many of their channels. We... they didn't block ours. I will tell you why they didn't block them. Alright, how did they block the channels? PTV, which kept spewing nonsense for four days, or Radio Lahore, or Radio Pakistan, they kept running; the nonsense they aired in India continued. And their experts kept sitting here too . Yes, they sat on media. Which ones of theirs did you block? Listen, you blocked theirs—Black Hole , Pervez Hoodbhoy has a very good channel, and I was afraid the army might shut it down, but the army didn't , our people did. You blocked Ishtiaq Ahmed's channel, his YouTube channel. Ishtiaq Ahmed is the person who blames Jinnah for the partition. Brother, why did you stop them? You stood to benefit . It was to your benefit. You stopped those who criticized the Pakistani government and those progressive voices . Why was that? Because the government, like ours, does not want those good voices to be seen there. Because they want PTV to be the only thing visible, showing how filthy they are. Well, there was no need to ban them because our channels had already become filthy. Watching Arnab Goswami fuels the patriotism of their people, and watching some of our own hotheads fuels ours. But you shut down the good voices . So, these are the things we have seen happening. Even today, many such voices are banned there, and they didn't ban ours because we had already become like this. I mean, I feel that is the job of governments. Anyway, whatever the job of governments may be, these days I didn't see the work of peace activists, in fact, I even felt bad for those who call themselves "non-Godi" during those four days...you might remember, I sent you a message saying I see no difference between Godi and non-Godi, and you expressed concern too. I feel that a journalist's duty during those days was to play their role with facts and at the very least, not fan the flames. We should not get carried away in that tide of nationalism. We got carried away, and even those of us who were peace activists were afraid to talk about peace. No, actually I feel that it is easy to talk about peace in times of peace. When there is unrest, that is when a peace activist's duty truly begins. I saw this, but anyway, it kept happening in our Punjab. Regarding this, my Punjab has many flaws. But the thing is, talk of love never stopped in our Punjab. Okay, lastly, because our podcast has become quite long. A very quick last question: it would be unjust to leave this untouched, that when we talk about Sufism and music, we see how it is the same on both sides. It is a kind of shared heritage. How do you see the impact of music in Punjab? If we talk about revolution, if we talk about politics, we see it in many things because music there is not just entertainment. Music is obviously an industry there, a very large industry. We have seen big names from there, and they are still very famous and, in a way, dominate that industry. So, how are they viewing it? And do you also see a downfall in their words or their lyrics? Right? Yes. This is one, and my second because these are two separate questions, but please answer them in separate parts. Second, what we have seen from 'Udta Punjab' to other such films, where the youth is being pushed into drugs and all this, do you think this is being done politically, or is it emerging on its own due to unemployment or such issues there? Because if you see even now, a large number of people from Punjab want to go abroad. Whether they become drivers or hold high positions, I mean, there are different categories. They want to go there in different ways. You go to America, I have seen many people there. Either there are Pakistani drivers in New York, or you find Sikh or Punjabi drivers. Or look at Canada, how an entire part of it is like that. So these are my three separate questions. Please tell me why this is, why people are leaving on such a large scale and are still leaving. What is the reason for this? And there is a kind of craze. Music and along with that Look, the musical roots are the same. Old music, Sufi music, folk music; that of Punjab is popular. Recordings and such started around 1930-31. At that time, there was a lot of variety in songs and other things too. Even literary songs and such were sung back then. Shiv Kumar, Amrita Pritam. We used to listen to all these things. But the big thing that happened, look, there are several phases to this as well. For one, the separation of Lahore caused us to lose our cultural center. Then, as Punjab gradually changed— like when the new Punjab was formed in '66 and Haryana split—the Malwa region's dominance grew, as Malwa is a large area. Now, the region that becomes more prominent is the one whose culture and nature, because every region has its own culture, starts to prevail. The culture of that region, its temperament , and its way of speaking become dominant. As for the Malwa region—I, too, come from Malwa. The Malwa region had these big landlords, a feudal value system. The leadership here didn't emerge from the freedom movement. They were sycophants of the British. So those very things, that feudal value system, started appearing in Punjabi songs, because the area that became prominent, where the music market shifted to Ludhiana, then Bathinda. In a way, pure Malwa; Bathinda is completely pure Malwa. Songs of that type emerged, showing old feudal traits ; a youth sitting on a horse, some Moose Wala type, firing a gun. There was a lot to it; some of it was already there in the stories written in Malwa. Like the tales by Dev Tharike Wala, which Kuldeep Manak sang, like '365 Charitra Naar Ke'—it says outright that a woman has 365 characters; it’s the biggest insult to women. Similarly, look at who your heroes are. Sucha Soorma. Why is Sucha Soorma a hero? Because he killed his sister-in-law. Because his sister-in-law had an affair with his friend. He killed her just for that. Where you become a hero by killing a woman. They are glorified. Even when Moose Wala says in his song, "Saade jaane Suche de je munde nahi jamde." It means our lineage is that of Sucha Soorma and Jeona Morh. Jeona was a dacoit. Sucha Soorma became a hero by killing his sister-in-law. But here, in our family, Ranjha and Mirza are not honored. Now he is even opposing Ranjha and Mirza. Why is he doing that? Ranjha is a symbol of love. Because the old heritage has always followed Ranjha. Mirza is a symbol of rebellion in love. So he is sidelining love. Also, the toxic masculinity, which I believe doesn't just go against women alone. It is dangerous for men as well. Because you have to become a fake man. They say that men never cry, man. You have to put on a face where you oppress women to be a man. A man is also sensitive, not just one who oppresses women. A man cries too. But men also exploit other men in the name of manhood. It encourages you to become a fake man in the name of manhood. All these things started appearing in songs. Then look, a major issue that arose in our Punjabi literature was that writers abandoned the 'Geet'(song) genre, like Ghazals and Nazms; they discarded it as if it were an unworthy son. But the market and music companies cashed in on it. So , from literature, even up to the 70s, songs were literary, as I gave an example; that was cut off and replaced by market culture. The glitz of the market took over. And another thing is that the political changes in Punjab were also visible. The Green Revolution arrived. The Green Revolution created two categories in farming. One was rich farmers, and the other was poor farmers ; the rich farmers became the Gurdas Maan types. For the small farmers, there was Chamkila. He started representing them. He represented their emotions—even though Chamkila was a Dalit, he voiced their feelings. Then, slowly, as these things emerged, they came along. Then it arrived. By the time we reached 2000, these brands arrived, and it became an industry of its own. Gangsters entered the scene; politicians started keeping gangsters. Then, real estate businesses began, and to run those, you needed thugs, so thugs were hired. Then the hero in your songs became a gangster, which is a problem here too because the music industry and film industry are the same . When you make a gangster the hero, why wouldn't a young boy become one? Politicians and the wealthy need goons to protect their capital. Now, for someone to become a goon, you have to show them that being a goon is a good thing. That started being shown in songs. Like Miss Pooja, Miss Pooja was an old singer. I don't know if you know her or have heard her name. She is telling her lover, "Hey, why don't you become a 'Beli'?" 'Beli' meaning a gangster type. So, by becoming a Beli, you'll be successful, because being a Beli—a gangster—means having a connection with those in power. So it has a connection to power. A direct connection. It’s the same thing as the Moose Wala type. He follows that very legacy, the gangster one, and this means it’s a decline. The music in Punjabi songs has changed. But the lyrics, the content, remained shallow. Their habits stayed the same. Meaning, being misogynistic, celebrating their feudal value system, so I feel that while there was progress technically. It didn’t happen in other ways. Right , and similarly, one big... The groups that change society, like progressive groups, also faced a problem. They worked in the political sphere. They worked in the economic sphere, but not in the cultural sphere. That’s why their music, their music style, remained old. The lyrics also remained old. So these are the things that... How much do you hold Bollywood responsible, because Bollywood portrays a version of Punjab where it's all singing, dancing, and drinking, and that 12 o'clock stereotype, you see, was popularized by Bollywood itself. Bollywood has been the, how should I put it, the Punjab for non-Punjabis. Like you are a non-Punjabi. You will imagine our Punjab by watching Bollywood. But it didn't impact Punjabis as much. Maybe it impacted them to some extent. Mostly, it was their own political system, economic system, or cultural system, specifically the music, that influenced them more. Okay, regarding your next question about migration. Yes. Migration has been happening in our Punjab for 200 years. The main reason is that the governments aren't providing opportunities. Young people are being forced to leave. That is a major reason. Then, it was also glamorized a bit. Now, going abroad is in our songs, our films, and everything . But people could argue that it's not like jobs are only unavailable in Punjab. This is the situation of the whole country. Inflation is in the whole country. Joblessness is in the whole country. But then... Because Punjab has been migrating for 200 years, you get settled in a place. You gain dominance there. Then another person likes to go there because their brother or sister is already well-settled there. They have a good job. I will also go there. That's why it becomes a custom. And that custom keeps continuing. Oh, so that’s the reason. Secondly, I also wanted to say that there was a lot of brand phobia in Punjab. A brand phobia emerged. It started showing in their songs as well. Big companies arrived. I mean, it’s the mandi culture, right? The mandi culture also influenced Punjabi music. And migration—migrating to foreign countries has been presented in Punjabi songs as something very glamorous, like , oh, they're going abroad, who knows what that's about. I mean, it doesn't matter what they're doing abroad, but the fact that they've gone abroad, all of that is showcased. Regarding the last point I was making about how much we see of drugs, do you feel that because of the revolution we saw in Punjab's universities and other places—that if voices weren't raised elsewhere, we saw those revolutionary voices rising from there? Is all of this being done to suppress them, or are these two separate things? The thing about drugs is that earlier, it was just small-scale substance use. Like opium and such were common. For this, there is a very sensible leader from the Congress, Dr. Dharamvira Gandhi. He even says that you should legalize opium. So that you can stay away from harder drugs. Scientifically, many other people also believe this. At that time, there were minor addictions; people were just small-time users. Users would only consume a little bit. But then business entered the picture, a trade was established. It could be the border, or it could be coming from across the border. But Bushra, the drug trade only thrives in collusion with politics. It cannot run without it. It cannot. That has certainly been a reason, because when your state is more passionate, more revolutionary, then their youth must be kept tangled in such things. That happens, and it cannot be denied. But the big thing is that from time to time, names of political leaders keep coming up, saying such-and-such leader provides patronage. Such-and-such leader, Vikram Majithia's name kept appearing. Names like these kept coming up. So, it cannot function without a political nexus. Yes, absolutely. So I feel that we have covered almost all of Punjab and almost every aspect related to it. We have at least tried to cover it as completely as we could. Thank you so much. I think there are two couplets. One is by Amrita Pritam, and I would say from my side that Amrita Pritam's couplet fits perfectly, that I have said everything I had to say. "Hale bhi kauka teri gal kare," meaning I have said everything from my side, but still , something is left; it's saying something remains. Then Shah Hussain, our great Sufi saint and poet of Punjab , says, "Reh de Qazi, let it be Qazi, the heart is not satisfied yet, there is still so much left to be said." Whatever is left, we will definitely try to cover it in our next podcast when you visit Delhi again, and I was saying that Punjab is the Punjab of Bulleh Shah. People probably don't know that Bulleh Shah was a Muslim. His name was Syed. We don't know Shah. Yes, it is Bulleh Shah. Exactly, it should be that way, and neither music nor these things have any religion, and they shouldn't be divided by all these segregations. He is also a saint. He is a Sufi saint. We don't consider him just a poet. Punjab considers him its saint. And Bulleh Shah did not belong to that kind of Islam. The final episode with Bulleh Shah, time is up. Orthodox Islamists said that Bulleh Shah is always tearing apart our fanaticism. We don't even consider him one of us. Therefore, this man should be buried outside Kasur. The clerics of that time said that we will not let Bulleh be buried in Kasur. What happened was that today, Kasur has expanded to where Bulleh's tomb is built. That shrine is there. Hmm. Thank you so much, Shivinder, for coming to the studio all the way from Punjab, and for a very interesting conversation. I hope all of you liked this. We hope that if you have any questions or want to ask anything, please write your comments in the comment box, and do share this program as much as you can. Goodbye.